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Welcome to the MOS pit


    Style discussions elsewhere

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    Add a link to new discussions at top of list and indicate what kind of discussion it is (move request, RfC, open discussion, deletion discussion, etc.). Follow the links to participate, if interested. Move to Concluded when decided, and summarize conclusion. Please keep this section at the top of the page.

    Current

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    (newest on top)

    Pretty stale but not "concluded":

    Capitalization-specific:

    This section is an excerpt from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters § Current.[edit]

    Move requests:

    Other discussions:

    Pretty stale but not "concluded":

    Concluded

    [edit]
    Extended content
    This section is an excerpt from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters § Concluded.[edit]
    Capitalization-specific:
    2023
    2022
    2021

    MOS:PRONOUNS cleanup

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    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
    Consensus for the merge/clean-up. Choucas Bleu (T·C) 20:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    To solve several problems at once, I propose the following:

    1) Add this text to Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Pronouns (MOS:PRONOUNS), which at present confusingly lacks anything on third-person ones, despite disputation about them coming up more often than with regard to any other:

    Third-person pronouns

    Refer to a person with pronouns (and other gendered words) that reflect their most recent self-identification in recent reliable sources. Singular they/them/their are appropriate in reference to anyone who uses them, as replacements for neopronouns, and in generic reference to persons of unknown gender.
    (For considerably more detail, see WP:Manual of Style/Biography § Gender identity.)

    Shortcut

    Ships (military or private) may be referred to either by neuter pronouns (it, its) or feminine pronouns (she, her). Both usages are acceptable, but each article should be internally consistent and exclusively employ only one style.[a] As with all optional styles, articles should not be changed from one style to another without clear and substantial reason.[b] Try to avoid close, successive uses of the same referent for a ship by carefully using a number of referents in rotation; for example, it or she, the ship, and the ship's name. The she/her optional style does not apply to other vessel/vehicle types, such as trains.[c]

    [...]

    Notes

    [...]

    1. ^ As usual, direct quotations should not be altered in such a regard, and have no effect on determination of consistency within Wikipedia-authored content.
    2. ^ See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (ships as "she") for an index of recurrent debates about this subject, from 2004 though 2022.
    3. ^ See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 167 § WP:SHE for steam locomotives as well as ships – concluded with a strong consensus against the practice.


    2) This (mis-placed) subsection at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ships)#Pronouns (WP:SHE4SHIPS) is to be deleted:

    Pronouns
    Shortcut
    For the naming convention for military vessels, see MOS:SHIPPRONOUNS.
    Ships may be referred to by either feminine pronouns (she, her) or neuter pronouns (it, its). Either usage is acceptable, but each article should be internally consistent and exclusively employ only one style. As with all optional styles, articles should not be changed from one style to another without clear and substantial reason.[a]
    1. ^ See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (ships as "she") for an index of recurrent debates about this subject, from 2004 though 2024.

    and replaced with:

    Pronouns
    For use of "it/its" or "she/her" in reference to ships, see WP:Manual of Style § Third-person pronouns.


    3) The subsection at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Military history#Pronouns (presently MOS:SHIPPRONOUNS) is to be deleted:

    Pronouns
    For the naming convention for merchant ships, see WP:SHE4SHIPS.
    Shortcut

    Ships may be referred to either using feminine pronouns (she, her) or neuter pronouns (it, its). Either usage is acceptable, but each article should be internally consistent and employ one or the other exclusively. As with all optional styles, articles should not be changed from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so.

    Try to avoid close, successive uses of the same referent for a ship by carefully using a number of referents in rotation; for example, it/she, the ship, and the ship's name.

    and replaced with the same cross-reference as above:

    Pronouns
    For use of "it/its" or "she/her" in reference to ships, see WP:Manual of Style § Third-person pronouns.


    4) Shortcuts that presently go to either of the old ship subsections will be re-targeted to the new one in the main MoS page.


    What this will solve:

    • It is very confusing that the main MoS page has a section for pronouns but contains nothing about the two most frequent pronoun-related subjects of conflict on Wikipedia.
    • It is unhelpful to have advice that is fairly frequently sought (and repeatedly contentious) buried on obscure pages.
    • One of these is a naming conventions page, and has nothing to do with article content; the ship pronoun question never arises in article titles, so this does not belong in an NC page at all.
    • The military-related concern ends up being exactly duplicative of that with regard to merchant and other private-sector ships, so it is not intrinsically a military style matter at all.
    • It is unwise to have initially duplicate language in two different guidelines, as it will inevitably WP:POLICYFORK over time and cause a conflict. The language in the two subsections has already drifted apart some.
    • The purpose of the main MoS page is (aside from having some unique, usually overarching rules that are not found in any of the topical drill-down pages) to summarize the key points of all the MoS pages. With regard to pronouns, these two points certainly qualify.
    • Make a few bits of the wording slightly clearer. E.g., that the ships thing is both military and private-sector.
    • Point to the consensus record against expanding she/her beyond ships.
    • Clarify that singular-they is also used generically; MOS:GENDERID skips that because it isn't pertinent to gender-related editing disputations, but I think we all know by now that this particular usage of singular-they is the one with a pedigree all the way back to Middle English. There still exist various agitators against singular-they, so any antics they might get up to on a wikilawyering basis need to be accounted for. Provide them no loophole to game.
    • For ships, subtly suggest a preference for it over she by listing the former first. This will be in agreement with the vast majority of actual practice, both in our material and in modern RS material.
    • Fix shortcuts so people arrive at the MoS material about it, not at cross-references to the MoS material about it.

    Please do not response to this cleanup proposal with suggestions to add new or remove old restrictions with regard to any sort of pronoun usage. This is not what this thread is about.

    The "Try to avoid close, successive uses of the same referent ..." material might be compressable without losing the gist of it. I chose not to, here, since this is in part a merge proposal and those are complicated when major textual changes are introduced.

    Further compression could be achieved by not having the first-paragraph summary of MOS:GENDERID on pronouns, but only a bare cross-reference sentence like "For third-person pronouns and their relation to human gender, see WP:Manual of Style/Biography § Gender identity."

    PS: For those interested in the tediously long history of disputation over she/her and ships, see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (ships as "she"); this might be missing some that happened at other pages, like in article talk. I don't know of a comprehensive archive of debates regarding pronouns and social gender, but someone may have compiled one by now.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • As a content manager in real life, it drives me nuts to see the same material duplicated across several pages. Support condensing to just the MoS page as suggested. Parsecboy (talk) 11:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 12:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Good idea, support. If it is possible to clarify that this section of the style guide refers to ships that float on water, and not airships, spaceships or other vehicles, I think that would be useful. John (talk) 16:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Of legal knowledge I acquired such a grip / That they took me into the partnership. / And that junior partnership, I ween, / Was the only ship that I ever had seen. [2] EEng 17:37, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      But that sort of ship so suited he / That now he is the ruler of the Queen's Navee. --Trovatore (talk) 18:02, 25 October 2024 (UTC) [reply]
      If you mention suiting again I'll report you for legal threats. EEng 19:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Suit yourself. --Trovatore (talk) 20:35, 25 October 2024 (UTC) [reply]
      Suture self. EEng 20:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      One of my favorite dad jokes involves that pun. A doctor cuts her finger in the OR. Another doctor says "Let me sew that closed for you" ... you can figure out the rest.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      @John: That would actually be a substantive change, and I'm skeptical there is a clear consensus for it. Most of our terminology with regard to spaceships, airships, and hovercraft (maybe something else I'm forgetting) are derived directly from those pertinent to float-on-water ships, because they are closely analogous in most relevant respects. That's not the case with trains and tanks and trucks/lorries and skateboards and bicycles and etc. The train RfC hints in the vague direction of "don't do it for spacecraft either", but did not clearly reach a result that specific, so for now it's an open question. That is, the jury seems to still be out on the exact definition of "ship" for this particular purpose.

      And I expect (given 20 years of history) for the entire matter to come up again within the year. If it does, it should probably be done as a VPPOL RfC, to attract a larger body of input from the community, instead of just the same handful of MoS regulars and people from watercraft and military history wikiprojects. [Aside: I wonder, sometimes, that this hasn't also come up for a few other topics with a historical "she" practice, especially countries, as in "Ireland and her rolling green hills". No one seems to want to fight to impose that style, and I'm glad of it.] But for now, I just want to merge and clean up the redundant and poorly placed guideline material as it presently stands. If nothing else, it will provide a single and obvious locus of the perennially-but-unresolvedly disputed material, instead of having it scattered in confusing places.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I read somewhere around here recently that Japanese ships are referred to with he/his. Are we saying just don't do that in English WP, or are we just ignoring a potential complication? I'd be in favor of saying explicitly not to. Dicklyon (talk) 01:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Something to research further, I suppose, but that's another substantive change proposal and out-of-scope for this merge/cleanup thread. Something to address in a later revision proposal after we have more details/sources on the question.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:22, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No prob. I Support in any case. Dicklyon (talk) 03:01, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Japanese doesn't have gendered third-person pronouns, so I don't see how that can be. あいつ usually gets translated as "he" or "she" depending on whom is being referenced, but I very much doubt it is ever used for ships, as it's usually used with contempt. 73.2.106.248 (talk) 13:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ships are typically referred to in English as 'she'. That's a very old usage and tradition. Is it codified in military usage, or simply traditional. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Either way, the point is that some will argue strongly for "she", and some will argue strongly against, and that's not part of what we can settle in this cleanup re-org. Same as what he told me about using "he" for Japanese ships; best not bring it up right now. Dicklyon (talk) 03:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Noting the consensus close, I've put this work on my to-do list, but will probably get to it tomorrow or later.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:12, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

     Done! As of a few minutes ago.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Should interactive content be included and, if so, where and how?

    [edit]
    Please select in your preferences: Enables javascript Calculator template to see a working calculator.
    Today
    [refresh]

    I think this is a new topic, forgive me if not.

    At Waist-to-height ratio, user:Uwappa wants to include an interactive calculator that they have developed, replicated here for your convenience. The concept is fairly simple: readers may enter their own height and waist-circumference and receive a calculation of their Waist-to-height ratio (and a related metric recently popular in the US, body roundness index). It is not earth-shattering stuff, the math is straightford and the underlying algorithms are fully supported by WP:MEDRS.

    We already have dynamic content, such as the display of the Islamic and Hebrew calendar dates v today's Gregorian calendar date. I don't see any issue with that practice.

    So here are the questions:

    1. Should Wikipedia include interactive content?
    2. If so, how should it be presented?
      1. Inline, without comment, so it appears to be just a static, illustrative example. As shown in this version of the page in the section #Guidelines. It is, however, still interactive.
      2. In an independent section, as shown in this version, in the section #Calculator, with a line of text that explains what it is. (This interactive calculator can calculate a waist–height ratio and Body roundness index. It accepts height and waist in cm or inches.
      3. Something else?
    3. Is it a WP:NOR violation? [not obviously to my mind, since it is 'merely' expressing the RSs in numerical rather than text form].
    4. Are there other issues that arise? (For ex, is MOS:ACCESS a show-stopper?)

    Personally I think it is a good idea (WP:NOTPAPER) but I'm not sure how best to handle it. Comments? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    See also Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 215#Building a simple body index calculator. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:23, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    On the subject of accessibility - if the labels for interactive fields are created using the {{calculator label}} template, it should mark in the HTML that that piece of text corresponds to that specific input button, which is something that screen readers should hopefully be able to take into account. I would recommend using {{calculator label}} where possible when labeling fields, for better accessibility (It may not be possible if a label labels more than one widget). For the most part, I think it should be reasonably accessible most of the time, but i would love to hear feedback from accessibility experts, as I am definitely not one.
    One thing I would recommend is to test how any interactive content looks when printed. In some cases it looks fine as is, but in other cases it might be necessary to make specific fallback content. The template supports having fallback content for cases where js is disabled or during printing. Bawolff (talk) 17:22, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Reply by Uwappa

    [edit]

    Demo:

    1. Update the height in the calculator on the WHtR page.
    2. The formula example values will 'magically update'.
    3. See the wikitext for what that takes to do. Look mum, no javascript!

    No, it was not me who wanted a calculator, do not deserve any credits here, user:Zefr does, see Zefr's founding father's idea of 01:28, 21 September 2024.

    1. Yes, Wikipedia should have interactive content. It is 2024. The web has moved on from being previous century 'static' text and images. WP is more than an online version of a paper encyclopedia with text and images. I fail to see why the calendar example is relevant here. Please don't be amazed that it is possible to show dynamic content in 2024, like the current time, 12:39, 22 December 2024 UTC [refresh].
    2.  
      1. Calculations should be presented inline, just like current examples at: Inch#Equivalents, Body_roundness_index#Calculation, Waist-to-height_ratio#Recommended_boundary_values, Centimetre#Equivalence_to_other_units_of_length.
      2. No, it does not accept just cm or inches. The Sandbox version does not ask you to input cm or inches, WP:NOTHOW. It uniquely accepts any unit, unlike commercial BRI calculators. A 3 year old in outback Australia could use a piece of string as a unit. You can use the height of a peanut button jar as a unit, please do and while at it, please record the time it took you to do the usability test and compare it with commercial calculators. It does support Americans, British and others using Imperial_units by providing cm-> feet & inches conversions.
    3. No it is not a NOR violation as defined by WP:CALC. The only thing Template:Calculator can do: calculations with numbers only. It yields just numbers, which include a simple bit, with a value of 0 or 1: to hide or to show, that is the question. See proposed plain English explanation in the sandbox. This show or hide is taken care of by standard CSS. Switch off CSS in your browser and see what goes on under the hood. A joke for the happy few that do understand Boolean_algebra#Basic_operations and have a sense of humor: Shakespeare was wrong. To_be,_or_not_to_be is not a question in 2024, it evaluates to a constant, boolean value: true. Same logic at: 中国房间 = AI NOT(AI)? That is not a question either. It is true.
    4. Security may be a concern to some. Is there some dangerous Javascript here? The answer was amazing for me: no. Look mum, no javascript in the wikicode. Current WP rules and guidelines suffice and apply, see information hierarchy in Sandbox.
    Uwappa (talk) 00:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    It is hard to tell from a distance what the reason for this post is. To me this post is a waist of valuable time and should be withdrawn.

    The current MOS applies well to:

    • A fixed date, just text like 1 dec 2032
    • A dynamic date, like now is 12:39, Sunday, December 22, 2024 (UTC) using template:currentdate
    • A combination of the two, like it is now 95 months till 1 dec 2032
    • A dynamic interactive version, using calculator with input fields asking for a month 11, year 2024 and the result of a calculation: It is 97 till 1 dec 2032.

    What is the problem here?

    with

    to get

    • It may be just a lack of knowledge, not knowing about WP:CALC. That is an easy one to solve, just go and read it
    • It may be a problem with limited Cognitive_skills or use of a small screen smartphone in stead of a large computer monitor. User JMF has replied with TMI to my posts several times. The easy solution would be to switch to a big monitor for more complex talk pages. For limited cognitive skills, I can only recommend to visit a medical expert, will not give medical advice WP:MEDICAL.
    • Disclosure: My field of expertise is a form of psychology that seems unknown in the English speaking world: function psychology. The 'patient' in that science is not the human, it is the design object that causes man-thing interaction problems like: Help, I do not understand my computer and my computer does not understand me. The 'cure' is a redesign of the 'thing' e.g. the Graphical_user_interface. Create a human efficient design that suits the qualities and limitations of the human eye, interpretation skills, memory, ability to think and take action (mostly with hands in computer interfaces). WP does not have an article yet on human efficiency or function psychology. Being too involved in this field, it is not up to me to write such articles, WP:COI, WP:OR, WP:NOTABOUTYOU.

    What I can do is to help WP and design excellent, human efficient interfaces. All of you can help by evaluating results.

    • Is the sandbox version human efficient? And please do not give a sh** about computer efficiency. No worries if computers do 'redundant' calculations to make humans more efficient.
    • Is the sandbox calculator better or worse than commercial equivalents?
    • I do not give a s*** about personal preferences and your 'solutions' based on personal preferences. Go and tell someone who cares. Just list the problems you encountered during the tests. The most valuable ones are when test subjects fail to reach the desired result.

    Such usability tests are easy to do and can be fun. Kudos to user JMF who has done a usability test that were very insightful for me in the metric world and have lead to an excellent unit less solution for people using either metric or imperial units.

    Please join the fun, perform a usability test yourself at: Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#Usability_test_of_body_roundness_calculators — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uwappa (talk • contribs) 07:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    @Uwappa:, this discussion is about the principle of how best to handle interactive content on Wikipedia. The details of the first such example are not relevant to the discussion. If anyone wants the details, you have covered them extensively at the template talk page. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 07:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I get the question. Do you understand my answer or is this TMI again for you?
    Did you notice the interactive date computations at #dateCalc? It would be a compliment if you missed it.
    Please go and inspect that bit of wikitext. Yes, it is really that simple to make interactive calculations!
    Uwappa (talk) 08:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    To answer the OP's original numbered questions:

    1. WP should very selectively include interactive content, when doing so enriches the functional (not entertainment or time-passing) utility of the site in ways compatible with WP's goals. It is correct that WP is more than a traditional paper encyclopedia, but it is not everything.
    2. I would suggest starting with sectional inclusion (or, for something small enough, use in a sidebar). We're already doing this with some limited "test-bed" ways, e.g. with interactive maps in infoboxes, and some manipulable 3D visualization objects, etc. But just dumping it directly inline is probably "too much, too soon". I could see that being feasible for certain kinds of things in 5–10 years, maybe, after both the user base and the editorial community got more used to it.
    3. Basic, objective calculation is not WP:OR. The policy is explicit about that, and we already use it regularly (just mostly non-interactively), e.g. to provide age-at-death calculations, inflation conversions, etc.
    4. MOS:ACCESS always matters, but there are ways around most accessibility problems (especially in a table-based structure like the one used as the example). Some other kinds of content simply are not accessible, and there's nothing much to be done for it, but we don't ban them. E.g., a movable panorama image is of no use to a blind person; the best they get is alt text. What's key, though, is that important encyclopedic material, verus "extra" or "enrichment" or whatever add-ons, must not be inaccessible (and supplementary materials should be made as accessible as possible, even if this is challenging).

    I would add that the example given here is probably a good one, as the interactive form actually helps one to understand how the calculations work, plus people are apt to want to try their own numbers in there for personal relevance reasons, and it's not pure entertainment/trivia but something meaningful to them. A counter example might be adding a pool table simulator to an article about a pool game; we have no reason to do this. However, I could envision us having an extremely limited interactive feature to illustrate specific principles like, say, "running" sidespin on the cue ball and its effect on angle away from a rail cushion versus the angle the ball had coming in. Right now, we can illustrate the effect with a fixed series of short animations or even static diagrams, but it might be more useful to have a widget that took user input and illustrated the results. But it should certainly not be a "mess around all day on a pool-sim video game" feature. I.e., no ability to zoom out into a full-size table and simulate arbitrary billiards actions.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I think articles on algorithms and math topics might be a place where having step by step interactivity would be particularly useful. I just added an interactive "illustration" to the Bubble sort article and I was also experimenting with the euclidean algorithm (not used anywhere as of yet). Bawolff (talk) 00:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    MOS:DATECOMMA and ranges

    [edit]

    Amaury is insistent that DATECOMMA does not apply to a range (expressed in prose): that from October 12, 2012 to September 25, 2015. is right and from October 12, 2012, to September 25, 2015. is wrong. That is nonsensical. The year is still a parenthetical; it is still required to be bounded by a punctuation pair. Notably, MOS itself includes a greentext example showing correct DATECOMMA applied to a range: between October 6, 1997, and May 20, 2002.

    Their argument

    January 1, 2023,–January 1, 2024 would be incorrect, which means January 1, 2024, to January 1, 2024 is also incorrect. It's still a date range, just written out instead of en-dashed. January 1, 2023–January 1, 2024 and January 1, 2023 to January 1, 2024 are equivalent.

    is inconsistent with MOS. MOS:RANGE is clear:

    Do not mix en dashes with between[/and] or from[/to].
    from 450 to 500 people, not from 450–500 people

    This means an en dash and "to" are not equivalent or interchangeable in Amaury's argued example. January 1, 2023,–January 1, 2024 is incorrect only because DATECOMMA already obviates the closing comma when the year is followed by other punctuation, i.e., the en dash.

    Is there an exception to DATECOMMA for written-out ranges? Hyphenation Expert (talk) 12:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Chicago Manual agrees, a second comma after the year in a range. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 13:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A minor prior discussion. EEng: do what feels best. SMcCandlish: No, there is no exception. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 13:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well I guess it makes sense to ping the previous participants then. @C.Fred, @SMcCandlish, @EEng. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The USGPO requires it: [3] The dates of September 11, 1993, to June 12, 1994, were erroneous. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 13:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reading MOS:DATERANGE, I would think it's apparently standard to use an en dash, such as January 1, 2023 – January 1, 2024, possibly to avoid this exact issue. Personally I don't see why DATECOMMA wouldn't apply when an en dash isn't used, but I'm not an expert, so clarity on the MOS pages could be beneficial. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Use of endash for ranges isn't standard, if by "standard" you mean "preferred over to"; either is ok in general, the choice depending on a combination of context or preference. EEng 18:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • While Amaury's argument is complete nonsense, the idea that 2015 in May 5, 2015 is a "parenthetical" is something even worse: pompous nonsense.[1] If that were so, then people in England would write We set 25 May, 2015, as the deadline, which they don't (and they can be pretty pompous, so that's saying a lot) or in America they'd write He left on May 5, 2015,. (<== with a comma AND a period at the end there) and they don't do that either (despite being crazy in other regards, as recent events demonstrate). The comma's present in May 5, 2015 because setting digits cheek-by-jowl (as in May 5 2015) would be confusing and error-prone.
    I'm generally a prescriptivist, but when it comes to comma usage, there are way too many fussbudgets (including otherwise sensible and respected style guides) still insisting that they be used in all kinds of places that great-grandpa might have used them (Tomorrow, we will leave) but where no sensible person today would use them under normal circumstances. Things change, and one big change over the last 200 to 300 years is a lightening up on commas. I realize I'm in the minority here, but when I read this "parenthetical/appositive" nonsense I cannot remain silent. EEng 18:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    1. ^ Additional pomposity can be achieved by claiming that 2015 is an "appositive".
    MOS:DATECOMMA does in any case refer only to MDY dates, not to DMY dates. Gawaon (talk) 20:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's part of my point. If commas are supposed to act as "parentheticals" around the year, then we'd be putting commas around the year in DMY dates as well as in MDY dates. EEng 21:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I mean, it could just be that the MDY style contingent has decided it's a parenthetical, and the DMY style contingent has decided it's not. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 21:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Plus, in DMY years, since there are no commas before the year, the question of whether to put some around it cannot even arrive. Gawaon (talk) 08:20, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "When technically minded folk with a penchant for order, consistency, and control get caught up in the zeal of a systematization crusade, un­pleas­ant­ness can result." – A Fellow Editor
    Sad to say, under MOS as it stands, the IP's changes are correct. I just think it's stupid to bother. EEng 21:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And see WP:If MOS doesn't need a rule on something, then it needs to not have a rule on that thing#For want of a comma, the clause was lost aka Why every goddam thing needn't be micromanaged in a rule. EEng 19:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't buy into the "OhButIfWeDon'tThereWillBeEndlessArgumentOnEachArticle" reasoning
    See, we're well past the "there might be argument" stage. The re-pet-i-tive, pro-tract-ed arguing began long ago.
    Also, as I said at the outset, MOS already includes greentext confirmation of a range datecomma: between October 6, 1997, and May 20, 2002. There is no "new rule"; however, as Hey man im josh says, additional clarity on the MOS pages could be beneficial.
    Ping priors Geraldo Perez MPFitz1968 YoungForever Mz7 HandsomeFella, IJBall is no longer around. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 00:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    +JohnFromPinckney Hyphenation Expert (talk) 00:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • MLA style: [4] The exhibit ran from June 2, 1995, to April 4, 1996, in New York.
    AP style: [5] between Feb. 1, 2021, and Feb. 22, 2023, the...
    When asked if from November 3, 2021 to November 30, 2022. needs a comma, CMOS adds APA, AMA, Microsoft, and Apple guides would all also tell you to use that second comma; the year is parenthetical ... this usage is relatively straightforward. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 01:45, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Amaury (if their view has been correctly described by the OP) is just flat-out wrong. Bracketing commas always come in pairs (in WP writing, even if some journalistic style guides like to drop the second ones); unless: A) the second one has been replaced by some other punctuation in the sentence such as a semicolon, or a terminal period/full stop or question mark; or B) the second one would come at the end of a sentence fragment that doesn't take terminal punctuation, such as a table header or image caption, in which case no punctuation is used there at all, obviously.
    Yes: from October 12, 2012, to September 25, 2015.
    Yes: moved from Los Gatos, California, to Reno, Nevada, in 2021
    No: from October 12, 2012 to September 25, 2015.
    No: moved from Los Gatos, California to Reno, Nevada in 2021
    Point A above is important. January 1, 2023,–January 1, 2024 should be January 1, 2023 – January 1, 2024 specifically because the second comma bracketing "2023" has been replaced by alternative punctuation (en dash, and a spaced one in this case because the elements on either side of it are complex not single-string; see MOS:DASH). But this has no implications of any kind with regard to the spelled out version January 1, 2024, to January 1, 2024. That is, the argument "

    January 1, 2023,–January 1, 2024 would be incorrect, which means January 1, 2024, to January 1, 2024 is also incorrect

    " is nonsensical, a confusion of two different but superficially somewhat similar things to which different rules apply. It's like writing "I is hungry is ungrammatical, thus She is hungry must also be ungrammatical."

    Anyway, there is nothing even faintly new about this discussion. This is pure rehash of long-settled questions and has introduced no new argument, evidence, or other material to consider.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Bracketing commas always come in pairs [etc] – Sure, if they're "bracketing"; you're just taking for granted that they are. I say that the commas in September 5, 2017 and Los Angeles, California aren't part of any "bracketing", but rather are just separators -- lonely, workaday, unpaired, non-bracketing separators. EEng 07:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not the view of the MOS, though. Gawaon (talk) 09:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    MOS doesn't take a position on the theoretical bases of the stylistic practices it recommends; it just recommends. EEng 22:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    They're defined as bracketing commas by our MoS (and by basic linguistic logic[*]). There really isn't anything else under discussion here (and should not be). Style discussions on WP keep getting lost way out in the weeds with people's tempers flaring because they try to bring in external "rules", and personal subjective preferences, and what they were taught in middle school (by a prescriptivist non-linguist) two generations ago, and how people at their job prefer to write, and what some third-party style guide they like better says instead, and etc. It's all just distracting and confusing noise. Cf. WP:NOT#FORUM. This page doesn't exist for debating how you wished academic writing worked, or why some MoS line item would be subjectively better your preferred way. If you can't make a strongly defensible case for an objective improvement to consistency and comprehensibility for readers, then MoS definitely should not be changed to suit your whims. Its value is in its stability, its concision compared to other style guides, its consistency (especially strong avoidance of making exceptions that are not effectively required by all of mainstream writing practice), and its focus on reader understanding of the material above any traditionalist, prescriptivist, nationalistic, or "expedientist" sentiments.

    Our punctuation system works perfectly fine on this particular comma-usage question, and is engineered for clarity. It serves that purpose well; the comma-avoidant alternative would not, and rather would make for many confusing constructions, for no gain of any objective kind. WP's style also agrees with the majority of practice in academic style guides and publications using them. So, to propose a change to this would require a really overwhelming case for doing so, based on real evidence of the superiority (somehow) of the alternative and proof that most of the style guides that are influential on MoS (not journalism and governmentese and fiction-writing ones) had changed on this question. Once in a while that happens (e.g., dropping of both the commas around "Jr." and "Sr."; increased acceptance of singular-they; avoidance of he/him/his as generic; etc.). WP eventually adopts such provable changes in English usage patterns, after they have become well-established in contemporary academic writing and the style guides for it. That's not happening with regard to this matter and is not likely to happen.

    [*] In more detail: They serve a parenthesizing function, by which what is between the commas is a post hoc clarifying modifier of what precedes it, and can often be omitted in a clearer context. That makes it parethetical by definition. In "We are hiring Anne, Bob, and Carol", these commas are not bracketing (parethesizing); no element of this can be removed without a loss of significant information or a grammatical problem (regardless of context). In "Her son, Daniel, is coming over for dinner tonight" and "They left Portland, Oregon, in 2004", all of these commas bracket parenthetical constructions which are necessary only in specific contexts. If you already know the son's name, you don't need to be told it; if you are in Oregon, you probably won't need the state specified (unless Maine was just now under discussion).

    In a particular context, something of this form might have all its parts become non-removable in a specific sentence (e.g., if I tell you "I'm going on vacation starting November 20", you probably do not need the year included; but the year is usually needed for more distant times, e.g. in "Mark Twain died on April 21, 1910, in Redding, Connecticut" you do need the year, except perhaps in a paragraph all about the events of 1910). But the underlying grammatical form is still parenthetical. We would not write an incidentally, contextually non-optional case in an inconsistent format. That would be very confusing for readers and editors alike. We know it would be confusing because a rather similar (and not particularly useful) distinction has unfortunately solidified in Modern English, with "Her son Daniel is coming over" conveying a different meaning (there is more than one son) from "Her son, Daniel, is coming over" (there is only one son). Various readers and even experienced editors often have trouble with this and get it wrong, but we need to get it right because this is universal across English dialects and registers ("Her son, Daniel is coming over", with only one comma, is erroneous in all of them, regardless which meaning was intended). By contrast, there is no dialect or register in which "The company was founded in Houston, Texas on January 3, 2015 by Chris O'Blivion" is required; it's simply a "save every character-space possible" preference of certain publishers' house styles. WP is not among them because it is harder to parse correctly without re-reading after all the comma-killing. I.e., we have an objective reason of reader comprehensibility to not write that lazy way. There are lots and lots of sloppy things done in journalese, bureaucatese, and marketingese that WP doesn't do, for good reasons.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:16, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm certainly not going to read all that (and I imagine few will), but please help me ... Is there anywhere in there where you explain why the same reasoning doesn't apply to DMY dates i.e. if the year is a "post hoc clarifying modifier", why do DMY folks write 5 May 2015 was clear instead of 5 May, 2015, was clear? EEng 04:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In all seriousness, Sandy, I'd really be interested to hear your answer on this. But please, keep it under 10,000 words. EEng 18:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Says the one with the longest user-talk page across all WMF projects, LOL.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    But then, my talk page isn't all one post. EEng 22:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's purely convention. Human language isn't a programming language and is not entirely logical or consistent. The "5 May 2015" format simply doesn't use commas at all (not in much of any professional writing, anyway). It's not WP's role to invent styles that are virtually non-existent in external reality, though where competing styles do exist in our register of writing ("May 5, 2015, was clear" vs. "May 5, 2015 was clear"; or "5 May 2015 was clear" vs. "5th May 2015 was clear" vs. "the 5th of May 2015 was clear"), we do have an interest in normalizing to the version that makes the most sense for our technical and reader needs (thus much of MoS, especially MOS:NUM). Various clearly parenthetical constructions also only optionally take commas (but in pairs), and the shorter they are the less likely we are to use those commas in modern writing ("They moved, in 2015, to Bremen" vs. "They moved in 2015 to Bremen"). Parentheticals are often also punctuated with round brackets (thus their other name, parentheses) or with dashes, simply as alternative conventions with a bit of difference in emphasis level. But all of these also come in pairs when used as parenthesizing punctuation.

    What's being sought here is an inconsistent variance from this pairing pattern if and only if the marks used happen to be commas instead of something else, and only when the content in question is a date or a place. That's a complicated and unnecessary rule that MoS not only doesn't need but affirmatively should not have. There is no reason to do it, because writing "May 5, 2015 was clear" isn't a style required or conventionalized in any dialect or register of English (simply a very optional hyper-expediency approach), it has significant costs to reader comprehensibility, and it's directly inconsistent with all other use of bracketing commas (no one with any sense would write "They moved, in 2015 to Bremen" – it takes either no commas or two).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    It's purely convention – Thank you. So if you want to argue that good usage has or has not adopted New Convention B in addition to (or in replacement of) Old Convention A, that's fine. But all this stuff about bracketing and appositives is just smoke and mirrors.
    And as for MOSBLOAT, in point of fact loosening up on this issue would be achieved by simply dropping everything in the Comments column in the date formats table:
    Acceptable date formats
    General use Only in limited situations
    where brevity is helpful    [a]     		Comments
    2 September 2001 2 Sep 2001 A comma doesn't follow the year unless otherwise required by context:
    • The 5 May 1922 meeting was cancelled.
    • Except Jones, who left London on 5 March 1847, every delegate attended the signing.
    September 2, 2001 Sep 2, 2001 A comma follows the year unless other punctuation obviates it:
    • The weather on March 12, 2005, was clear and warm.
    • Everyone remembers July 20, 1969 – when humans first landed on the Moon.
    So that would be a definite deflation, not bloat. EEng 22:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It would also loose useful information, though. Many people know the conventions mentioned in the comments already, but not everybody does. Gawaon (talk) 08:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If you mean "lose" information, that's not a problem. Unlike articles, our behind-the-scenes guidelines don't aspire to teach readers / editors general knowledge. EEng 15:28, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not general, just what's needed to successfully edit Wikipedia. Which apparently includes these rules for comma placement, otherwise this discussion wouldn't have started. Gawaon (talk) 15:53, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That EEng, by his own admission, has refused to read the argument presented, explains why he did not understand it. His lack of understanding doesn't mystically make the argument wrong. And the fact that a practice exists in English by convention does not somehow make it devoid of logic or reason, much less of practical effect. Most of the workings of our language, spoken and written, have logic and practicality to them (some eroded a bit by language change), yet all of our language also exists as it does by convention. EEng has somehow confused "It is this way by convention" for "It has no reason, thus can be undone or replaced with impunity". They are not equivalent. EEng asked why the "12 March 2005" format lacks commas, and the answer is that it is not conventional to include them in that format. (There are many, especially numeric, formats of things that are typographically done particular ways, not always consistent with other approaches to conveying essentially the same information. Most of them even have alternatives that some individuals like better, yet MOS:NUM has in virtually every case settled on the single conventionalized one that is most clear.) This "no commas" fact of DMY format has no implications of any kind for commas in any other format, nor (to get to the heart of the present matter) for why, when one comma is placed before the year in "March 12, 2005" MDY format, a second one follows (unless replaced by an alternative, like a sentence-ending "."). These are all entirely severable questions, so it is not cogent to seize upon one's inference in regard to the answer to one of these questions as dispositive in any way with regard to the handling of any other.

    Unlike articles, our behind-the-scenes guidelines don't aspire to teach readers / editors general knowledge: That's correct; they exist to ensure that our editors produce material of maximum intelligibility and other usability for readers (and secondarily to stop editors fighting with each other over trivia). The proposal to write "On March 12, 2005 Elbonian troops invaded Narnia" is inimical to that goal, by introducing confusingly ambiguous syntax (the more complex the sentence the harder it becomes to figure out WTF the sentence structure even is when half the bracketing commas go missing, but even this simplistic example is hopelessly broken). Another way of putting this is that context always requires that second comma (or obviating alternative) because the inclusion of the first comma has the result that for some subset of readers every such construction lacking the second will be syntactically and often enough semantically confusing (generally because commas serve multiple purposes in English).

    Finally, there is a tension between making MoS concise and making it both understandable and serving its dual purposes of improving WP readability and reducing editorial conflict. We know from long history that our editors for years got into confused, confusing, and angry pissing matches about date formatting, with resultant chaos in mainspace. (Those date-format disputes are in fact why MoS is a WP:CTOP in the first place.) So, removing the column of clarity about when to use commas with dates is the last thing we should do, since it would be guaranteed to cause a recurrence of conflict and confusion about what to do with dates. MoS resurrecting anew any long-settled "style war" is the opposite of its goal.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:46, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Look, I'm writing a book right now, so I just don't have time to read other people's book-length posts. It's not that big a deal, my friend. We can pick this up another day, say, 20 months from now. EEng 16:35, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Notes

    1. ^ For use in tables, infoboxes, references, etc. Only certain citation styles use abbreviated date formats. By default, Wikipedia does not abbreviate dates. Use a consistent citation style within any one article.

    Dyslexia font?

    [edit]

    Is there any font available in wikipedia that can be called by CSS such as:

    Uwappa (talk) 06:52, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    See Wikipedia:Dyslexic readers. Personally I didn't find that it helped, but good luck. SchreiberBike | ⌨  20:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:DYX seems outdated. I do not see 'Fonts' in preferences. Uwappa (talk) 01:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, that's out of date. I've raised the question on that talk page. Anybody else got ideas? If not here, perhaps Wikipedia:Teahouse has ideas. SchreiberBike | ⌨  02:43, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Uwappa and SchreiberBike: It's not in preferences, and as far as I know (my records go back to about 2010), it never has been. It's a configuration setting that is independent of preferences: as the WP:DYX page formerly said (I don't understand why This, that and the other (talk · contribs) removed it), it's done through the cogwheel next to the word "Languages". This is in the expected position in the left sidebar for four of the installed skins - Modern, MonoBook, Timeless and Vector legacy (2010). For three other skins, it's different:
    • For Colugne Blue (which not many people still use), the setting may exist but I can't find it
    • For MinervaNeue (i.e. most mobile users) there is no setting
    • For Vector 2022, it's there but is more difficult to find (as are many other things): you need to look just above the "Read / Edit / View history" tabs, where you should find a box that shows a strange Asian character, a number, the word "languages" and a down arrow. Click that down arrow, and the cogwheel is revealed after "+ Add languages" at the bottom right of the dropdown.
    Having located the cogwheel, click it and then proceed as per WP:DYX instructions 2 through 6 inclusive. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Found it and successfully set the font to OpenDyslexic.
    That is eh... well hidden. Uwappa (talk) 13:52, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I amended the WP:DYX page. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:27, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A video or animated gif of the process would probably be welcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The whole process should be simpler:

    1. My preference: OpenDyslexic is the default font for Wikipedia. Yes, that is all pages for everybody. Wikipedians can opt for another font in preferences. IP users have no choice. This will benefit the large majority of dyslexics that are not wikipedians.
    2. Wikipedians can opt in for Dyslexic font in preferences. No solution for the vast vast majority of IP dyslexics.
    3. For happy few, the current solution: install dyslexic font on own device, create your own CSS. That will benefit the very few dyslexics that are Wikipedians, know how to install a font and 'speak' CSS.

    Uwappa (talk) 04:54, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    @Redrose64 you will notice that you can actually click the cogwheel in numbered list item 1 on WP:DYX itself - no need to go locating anything! This, that and the other (talk) 06:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Uwappa: To take your numbered points in not their original order: 2) That's already the case, except "no solution for ... IP dyslexics" isn't really true; the "cog-wheel" menu discussed above is available to logged-out users. The problem is that it's hard to find. 3) This is additionally already the case. Anyone can install that font, system-wide, and have their browser impose it universally. This takes a smidgin of technical figuring-out, but anyone dyslexic who finds that font helpful has it in their best interests to figure that out, because really close to zero sites on the entire Web are going to be doing what they'd like done, so it will have to be done by local and overriding personal imposition. 1) As someone who's mildly dyslexic, I have to say I detest the OpenDyslexic font, and the earlier ones it's based on, as general reading fonts. As a decorative display font for things like flyers, OpenDyslexic is a nifty neo-Nouveau font, and I've actually used it before with that aesthetic in mind. But for general reading, I think I'd rather just gouge my own eyes out. I don't find it helpful in the least, and at smaller than heading sizes, it slows my reading pace by about 50%. Not everyone's ability issues are identical, even if they fall within the same general/overgeneralized classification. So, the idea of imposing this font on everyone by default is a non-starter; it'd be like requiring everyone to wear a hearing aid (turned up loud at that) even if their hearing is acute.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Your option 3 is nice, let the browser take care of it, across all websites. Yes, that will suit dyslectics fine and won't have any impact for the rest of us. Simple, working, excellent! Thank you!
    I am not dyslectic myself, so I can not judge the font benefits. The design idea makes sense to me, make sure characters do not look identical when 'flipped' in the mind. Uwappa (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That only works for a particular sort of dyslexia, prone to vertical flipping. I'm glad such a font works for those who experience that. For some of us, it's more of a "swimming letters" effect that slows reading and causes a lot of mistaken first readings, e.g. seeing "exist" as "exits" or vice versa (though for me it's much more of an issue with numeric input). Also impedes visual scanning for typos, which has a lot to do with my higher-than-average rate of those. I sometimes re-re-re-read something before hitting "Publish changes" and there will still be an "obvious" typo in it. There's probably also horizontal flipping, like difficulty with E vs. 3, J vs. L, etc., but it's not something I've studied (and not something that affects me). I've heard of another sort that involves whole-word transposition, and that would drive me bonkers.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:28, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I tried that OpenDyslexic font. It makes pages more difficult to read than the default Arial font. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:34, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've tried the open dyslexia font. It is OK for me and I do understand how it counters both vertical an horizontal character-flipping.
    For me the default Arial font is easier to read, but I am not dyslexic.
    I do like the suggestion to solve it in the browser. Let dyslexic people use a special font, not just on Wikipedia, but on all websites.
    • That will be great for dyslexic people.
    • While the rest of use are happy with the standard font.
    Uwappa (talk) 14:36, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Cleanup of WikiProject Judaism's style advice essay

    [edit]
    FYI
     – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

    The page presently at WP:WikiProject Judaism/Manual of Style has been nominated for renaming to WP:WikiProject Judaism/Style advice to be consistent with other wikiproject advice essays on style, since it is not part of the WP:MOS guidelines.

    For the same reason, "MOS" shortcuts to it are nominated for replacement, at WP:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 24#MOS:JEW.

    The wording in the essay needs considerable work, as it strays off-topic, has a bit of an us-vs.-them and occasionally even ranty tone, ironically has not been in compliance with a dozen or so parts of the actual MoS, and has other issues. I resolved a bit of this in one section, but really it hasn't been very substantively overhauled in over a decade, and almost all of it is the output of a handful of 2006–2007 editors.

    PS: See also Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Proposal to import a line-item from WP:JUDAISMSTYLE into MOS:BIO. A piece of the essay (mis-placed because it is not about Judaism) is correct and important but really belongs in that guideline instead.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:36, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Retain or remove citation indicators in quoted text?

    [edit]

    Is it acceptable to remove citation indicators – ¹ or (Gorgon, 1993) – that appear within quoted text (this would be to improve readability). I'm not referring to citing quoted material, but to citation marks within quoted material. Thanks! Tsavage (talk) 12:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes. References to footnotes are usually silently omitted, as they are not a part of the text flow anyway. Gawaon (talk) 11:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. Is this addressed in the MoS? I couldn't find mention MOS:QUOTE. This would seem a common situation when citing academic sources. Tsavage (talk) 15:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I added it while doing some other cleanup. It's entirely normal to silently (not with "...") remove inline citations from quoted material, since WP isn't providing the source info, and to the reader it will be just be frustrating (they'll go looking for "Smith 1997" or whatever, and not find it). If our article is also citing the same source, then linking the quoted citation to our citation might be useful, but shouldn't be seen as manadatory. A general principle of quotation (inline or block) is to only quote what is pertinent, what is contextually necessary for our purposes; otherwise we're wandering into over-quotation which is both poor writing and apt to be a copyright issue unless the source is public-domain.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. Your addition is helpful and doesn't seem to overcomplicate things. I realized the primary aim with quoted material is not to forensically reproduce it from the source (as I'd kinda been doing), it's to accurately represent the meaning as it appears in the full context of the source. Which makes minor silent adjustments for readability fine, provided meaning is strictly preserved – comprehension and judgement are of course required. Tsavage (talk) 17:06, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    MOS:NOTLATIN and the Americanist phonetic notation

    [edit]

    Hello, per the discussion at Template:Did you know nominations/Muthkwey, I thought it may be best to start a discussion here. We have come to a bit of a stand-still regarding the status of Americanist phonetic notation (NAPA). Per the discussion, several languages in the Pacific Northwest Coast use Americanist Phonetic Notation and as it stands, it is recognized as a non-Latin script in the system. The challenge is that there exists no recognized romanization system for NAPA, per NOTLATIN’s requirement for romanization of non-Latin scripts, nor is there an incentive to do so.

    In typical usage beyond Wikipedia, words in Northwest Coast languages rendered in NAPA are typically left as-is, with no romanization, or with a transliteration if there so exists a historical example. However, those transliterations are few and far between, and are often inconsistent as they differ author to author. It would not be a sustainable system, because those words only constitute a small portion of the lexicon.

    My question is whether NAPA should/would be recognized as a Latin script for the purposes of WP:NOTLATIN. NAPA derives heavily from Latin script, with the exception of a few Greek letters. Those letters represent various sounds, and each one serves a specific purpose. If it is not recognized as a Latin script, what would be the best course of action to allow various words to conform with WP:NOTLATIN, since there is no existing romanization system, and any generated romanization therefore would mostly be in violation of WP:OR. Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated. Ornithoptera (talk) 19:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Sounds Latin enough to me. Gawaon (talk) 11:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree. The concept of a "romanisation" of NAPA doesn't make sense to me. In fact, NAPA in some ways strikingly resembles romanisation schemes for Cyrillic, and Cyrillic variants that have been used to transcribe or write down previously unwritten languages, so much that in the past I've wondered if UPA and NAPA originally arose as romanisations of Cyrillic-based transcriptions. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Stale advice: slashes have been line-breaks since 2005 (Unicode 4.1.0)

    [edit]

    § Slashes (strokes) says "On the other hand, if two long words are connected by an unspaced slash, an {{wbr}} added after the slash will allow a linebreak at that point."

    I've recently tweaked a couple of articles doing this, and realized that my browser will allow breaks after slashes without any special markup. This is part of the current Unicode line-break algorithm. Looking into the archives, it was added to support breaking URLs between Unicode 4.0.1 (2004-03-30) and Unicode 4.1.0 (2005-08-29).

    It's been 19 years. Do we still need this advice? I ask because some parts of WP are aggressively backward-compatible: {{wbr}} still expands to <wbr/>&#8203; since apparently IE7 and earlier don't support <wbr/>. But I seriously doubt that WP is consistently backward-compatible; I'm sure there are lots of more recent edits where the editors didn't see a problem with long /-separated lists on their browsers and didn't do anything tricky. 97.102.205.224 (talk) 17:20, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Look at Good articles (or former Good articles) from years ago they read like they do now and it just shows that the Manual of Style will stay exactly the same as it has been for 18 years unfortunately. This0k (talk) 02:45, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Placement of composition/description/synopsis/plot sections

    [edit]

    It has been loosely implied that I am an incorrigible, MOS recidivist who should either be placed in wiki-jail or released on my own recognizance and given an MOS ankle monitor and watched closely for compliance. This is because I have consistently used older styles of article writing where descriptions of the subject (art, film, literature, etc.) are not placed in section 1, but elsewhere, sometimes even in section 2 or section 3. There are many reasons as to why I did (or continue to do) this, mostly having to do with different types of narrative structures unique to each topic.

    Clearly, the film project has taken a strong stance against this, and I believe the vast majority of film articles are required to have the plot section in the section 1 position. However, I do remember that in the deep past, documentary films were often exempt from this, and would often find the synopsis sections in other positions. This was also true for older non-fiction articles until recently, for example The World Without Us, where the synopsis appears below the background section in section 2, not 1. The same can be said for many different FA art articles, where the composition or description section appears in places other than section 1. Examples are many, including Portrait of Maria Portinari and Portrait of Mariana of Austria. Portrait of Monsieur Bertin is more interesting, where the description section is much, much farther down.

    In my mind, this was an acceptable interpretation of "one style or format [that] is acceptable under the MoS" until recently, however, I believe this has fallen out of favor since about 2018 or so (as far as I can tell), and things have become much more rigid, and unlike Old Wikipedia culture, you can't do things differently anymore. My reading of this is that description sections in any form are now unofficially required to be in the section 1 position. In other words, if I write a new article right now and place the description of the topic anywhere but section 1, should I be reverted according to MOS practices (across all WikiProjects), or is there room for flexible interpretations across the project in different disciplines?

    As an example, in articles about paintings, I am partial to headings that reflect a Lead (0), Background (1), Development (2), and Description (3) structure, in that order. This has recently caused minor friction in other parts of the project with editors who dislike or disagree with me placing the description so far down. I would appreciate some additional insight into whether my practice is acceptable under the MOS. Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 20:30, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    MOS:FILM suggests Plot follows immediately after the lead, but "the structure and ordering may vary between film articles". Not sure about paintings. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:46, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Input needed on disagreement over where the lifespan goes in relation to a baronetcy or a peerage title

    [edit]

    Muéro and I disagree on where the lifespan goes in relation to a name that includes a baronetcy or a peerage title. It started with Muéro removing honorifics from the lead of several articles on peers (many of which I have on my watchlist), following the recently changed guidelines at WP:POSTNOM. This is not controversial, but in their edits, he also removed a comma unrelated to the honorifics, but called for by WP:COMMA ("Don't let other punctuation distract you from the need for a comma, especially when the comma collides with a bracket or parenthesis").

    I pointed this out to them, and they acknowledged the error, but then they instead started to leave another comma in place, a comma that was required by the now obsolete guideline. I can't find the guideline in the history of this article, but it went something like this:

    For people with a baronetcy or a peerage, the post-nominals should be separated from each other, and from the name, by a comma, for consistency's sake. (my underscore)

    That is the comma Muéro left in place, and the result was this: 

    John Doe, 1st Baron Doe, (1 January 1801 – 31 December 1881), was a Whig politician ...

    I pointed out to Muéro that this is also wrong, and that punctuation rarely – if ever – precedes a parenthetical expression. But they are adamant that it should be there.

    So here we are. I'd like input from the project, and I'm sure Muéro would like that too.

    The discussion originated on Muéro's talk page, but I'm copying it here, and closing it there, while notifying them.

    The discussion on Muéro's talk page

    [edit]

    Hello.

    Thank you for your contributions. Regarding your edit of Frederick Curzon, 7th Earl Howe, and similar edits removing postnoms per the new guidelines, please don't remove the comma after the parenthetical birth–death expression. It's supposed to be there per WP:COMMA: "Don't let other punctuation distract you from the need for a comma, especially when the comma collides with a bracket or parenthesis".

    Thank you. HandsomeFella (talk) 15:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Ah, good catch. I can't wait for the day when nobility titles are also excluded entirely, which would make that comma unnecessary anyway. Muéro(talk/c) 15:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hello again.
    Thank you for your understanding. Re: your latest edits, you're now leaving a comma in place that shouldn't be there.
    Nathaniel Charles Jacob Rothschild, 4th Baron Rothschild, (29 April 1936 – 26 February 2024),
                                  ^                     ^                                   ^
                                  A                     B                                   C
    Commas A and C are paired, comma B should be removed along with the postnoms that followed it. Commas rarely precede parentheses.
    Cheers.
    HandsomeFella (talk) 17:52, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think that makes sense. If someone doesn't have a nobility/royalty title, there is no comma before or after the life span. When adding the nobility/royalty title, the pair of commas should go before and after the nobility/royalty title. Why, when adding the nobility/royalty title, would the life span get looped into the comma pair? Muéro(talk/c) 17:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Step by step

    [edit]

    I think it makes perfect sense. You don't put a parenthetical expression after punctuation, do you? Let me take this step by step. Normally, the first sentence would be something like this: 

    John Doe was a Whig politician ...

    Now let's add that he was a peer: 

    John Doe, 1st Baron Doe, was a Whig politician ...
        ^              ^
        A              B

    The commas A and B are paired, i.e. the "parenthetical" title is set off at both ends (unless when there is other punctuation, like at the end of sentence). Let's see what happens without the closing (second) comma: 

    John Doe, 1st Baron Doe was a Whig politician ...

    If the commas aren't paired, the sentence reads "1st Baron Doe was a Whig politician", and "John Doe" is left dangling at the start of the sentence.

    Now, let's add the life span. Where do we add it? Before punctuation. 

    John Doe, 1st Baron Doe (1 January 1801 – 31 December 1881), was a Whig politician ...
        ^                                                  ^
        A                                                  B

    The commas A and B are still paired. See?

    HandsomeFella (talk) 23:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The nobility title is a nonessential appositive. Commas go before and after a nonessential appositive. I'm assuming you don't consider the lifespan, which is never set off by commas in a Wikipedia article, to be a part of the same nonessential appositive somehow, right? If it's not included in the nobility title nonessential appositive, then it goes outside the commas. Muéro(talk/c) 00:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it doesn't. Sure, the lifespan parenthetical isn't part of the appositive, but neither are the commas, which is demonstrated by the fact that at, if the name and title occurred at the end of a sentence, there wouldn't be a comma; there would be a period/full stop:
    ... Joseph Smith bequeathed the manor to his nephew, John Doe, 1st Baron Doe (1801–1881).
    You wouldn't place the parenthetical outside the sentence like this, would you?
    ... Joseph Smith bequeathed the manor to his nephew, John Doe, 1st Baron Doe. (1801–1881)
    Ergo: normal rules apply, which is that punctuation doesn't precede a parenthetical. (The exception being when there is a complete sentence inside the parentheses, in which case punctuation occurs both at the end of the preceding sentence, i.e. before the parenthetical, and before the closing parenthetical, as shown here.)
    Commas go before and after an appositive (unless there is other punctuation), but that does not necessarily mean immediately after.
    HandsomeFella (talk) 10:29, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Punctuation doesn't precede a parenthetical" is not a rule at all. It's just something you made up.
    If the parenthetical were being applied to the nobility title, then the parenthetical should go within the commas that set off the nobility title. But the parenthetical is being applied to the actual name of the person, which came before the nonessential appositive that is set off by commas.
    If you dislike the placement of the nobility title between the name and the lifespan parenthetical, I wouldn't disagree. I'd happily remove the nobility title entirely from the lead sentence (or heck, the whole article). Or put the lifespan parenthetical first, and then the nobility title. But wherever the nobility appositive is being stuck, it gets set off by commas. That's the rule. Muéro(talk/c) 13:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This one is simple: a comma is never placed immediately before other punctuation. Instead it's placed after them or, in case or semicolons and periods, omitted altogether. While MOS:COMMA doesn't say so quite explicitly (supposedly treating it as one of these common sense things that everybody already knows?), it gives an example of how to do it correctly: "Burke and Wills, fed by locals (on beans, fish, and ngardu), survived for a few months." (With the second parenthetical comma after the closing bracket.) So, by analogy, "John Doe, 1st Baron Doe (1 January 1801 – 31 December 1881), was a Whig politician" is indeed correct. Gawaon (talk) 08:58, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Concur with the OP and with Gawaon on the typographical point; we don't use a comma right before a round-bracketed parenthetical, nor does much of anyone else in the world. One might make an argument that "logically", in the way a computer program would approach logic, there should or could be one there, and this is the direction Muéro has been going, but human language does not operate on such a basis, being a matter of convention combined with expediency, not a matter of a JSON-like syntax in which a comma that really should not be needed to parse the material must be present anyway or the operation will fail.

    That said, we do have several interrelating issues at play in this titles and post-noms sector that are worth cataloguing and considering in some detail:

    1. Something like "Xerxes Youill Zounds, Grand Poobah of Elbonia–Brobdingnag (3 May 1571 – 24 July 1644), was ..." is always indicating the life-span dates. If there is a need to specify the duration of a peerage, including a change in titles, that should be done in plain English in the article body, and is not going to be lead-sentence or even lead-section material. It's body material, like "Upon the death of his father, Zounds became 3rd poobah of Elbonia on 12 December 1629. He was elevated to 1st grand poobah of Elbonia–Brobdingnag on 20 June 1639 by High King Korki IX of Kerblachistan. Zounds was also the bishop of Lilliput from ca. 1630 to 14 February 1633, when he was defrocked by the archbishop of Elbonia."
    2. As an anti-classist myself, I still have to observe/concede that "don't include any titles or post-noms because they are classist" is not a viable position. WP is not a socio-political activism tool, and when any such title or honor (whether earned or hereditary or otherwise) is pertinent to a notable article subject, it should be covered, more prominently the more important it is within the context of their notability. (See below for an idea toward suppressing lead inclusion when not related to notability at all but a late-coming add-on to the pile of someone's life aachievements.)
    3. There's a been a very long-standing de facto consensus to always include peerage titles and important post-nominals (but not academic or professional titles or post nominals like "Dr[.]" or "PhD", or guild/union stuff like "ASC", "PGA") in the lead sentence. Virtually every applicable article has been written this way.
    4. A recent-ish RfC (I seem to have lost the link to it – help me out?) with probably much too low a turnout upended part of this, and now has us remove the post-nominals from the lead sentence. This has not sat well, and actually introduces some writing problems that the RfC participants did not anticipate. For example, WP does not, except in an article on the subject being abbreviated, introduce an acronym/initialisms unless it is going to be re-used later in the same artile. But if our bio subject's investiture as a Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath is covered in the body only, the point at which this is done has no need to a "KCB" appearing at that point, since "KCB" is used as a post-nominal not otherwise and would not be re-used later in the article; the result is that the "KCB" that applies to this person has no logical place to go in the article any longer, since it was actually only pertinent in the lead sentence, attached to the person's name. We could do something very awkward like state that this knighthood entitles/entitled this person to use "Sir" or "Dame" and the post-nominal "KCB", but this sort of blather would have to be repeated throughout many thousands of articles, and was already very concisely conveyed by the original lead sentence without having to spell it out and micro-WP:COATRACK the bio article with detailia about how a particular order's nomenclatural rules operate. Simply showing rather than telling was better.

      So, this really should be re-RfCed, at a higher-profile venue like WP:VPPOL so we are certain that the community at large really wants to impose this lead rule change and its problems all in the name of shaving a few characters off the lead sentence. "The postnoms will be in the infobox anyway" isn't the (or an) answer, since not all bios have infoboxes, and there is staunch resistance to adding them in many cases. A potential compromise might be to not include postnoms in lead sentence but in an infobox when one is present and has a parameter for it.

    5. Even without revisiting that with a better RfC, the present wording at MOS:POSTNOM is daft: "post-nominal letters may be included in the main body of the article, but not in the lead sentence of the article". This has already lead to dispute about whether it means post-noms are banned from the entire lead or only the literal lead sentence, because it only addresses the lead sentence and the post-lead-section article body. The correct answer (if you look at the RfC discussion and the alleged consensus arising from it) is that this should instead read something like "post-nominal letters may be included, but not in the lead sentence of the article"; there was no consenus to ban them from the entire lead section. However, this runs into the problem above: Because post-nominal letters are used directly with full names, and generally only upon first introduction, there effectively is no practical place for them, in the lead section or in the article body, other than the lead sentence (except arguably in an infobox if it's there and has a place for this information).
    6. Next, there's a misapprehension here (evidenced in the beginning of this thread) that this anti-postnom RfC result somehow also means to remove peerage and nobility titles from the lead. It does not. They are a different category of thing and were not addressed in that RfC. It is possible that a consensus might be reached to remove peerage titles when they are not pertinent to the subject's notability (e.g. that would have been the case with Christopher Guest had he had remained an actor only and not taken a seat in the House of Lords). There are also many life baronetcies created late in the life of the recipients and to little public awareness; a case can be made to exclude them from the lead sentence and probably from the entire lead section. But this is something for a consensus discussion on an article-by-article basis, or for a new RfC if we wanted a categoric rule of some kind about it.
    7. A side issue is that some parties from the nobility and peerage wikiprojects have, by WP:FAITACCOMPLI behavior, programmatically usurped the |name= parameter of {{infobox person}} and its offshoots, abusing it to hold the peerage title, when that really belongs in |postnom= since it is in fact post-nominal (it's just not a post-nominal abbreviation). See Margaret Thatcher for the typical absurd result. Because this has been done to thousands and thousands of articles and involves yet another "wikiproject rebellion" against the norms of the entire rest of the project, I suspect this is probably best addressed with another WP:VPPOL RfC so there can be no doubt about the community consensus level of the result (which will obviously be to stop having our infobox blatantly lie to our readers that Margaret Thatcher's name is "The Baroness Thatcher". For the Thatcher case, the obvious solution is: |name=Margaret Hilda Thatcher|honorific_suffix=Baroness Thatcher<br />{{Post-nominals|country=GBR|size=100%|LG|OM|DStJ|PC|FRS|HonFRSC}} , and this is what agrees with the lead of the article. (Note lack of "The" before "Baroness".)

      These infoboxes are also failing MOS:HONORIFIC by including honorific salutation phrases like "The Right Honorourable" that are not part of the name in any sense, but used when writing a letter to such a person or when introducing them as speaker, and so on; that sort of information does not belong in a bio article (much less thousands of them robotically) but in an article on forms-of-address etiquette and probably again in the article on the title (baronet or whatever the case may be).

    There are probably other issues to address, but this is a lot already.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:42, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Any objections to extending MOS:TIES to all nations and regions?

    [edit]

    Currently MOS:TIES qualifies itself to English-speaking nations. However, in an increasingly multicultural world with English emerging as the lingua franca, at minimum in the Western world, why qualify this part of the MoS like that, ESPECIALLY when it also impacts on MOS:UNIT? For example, the European Union has 24 official languages, including English, and multilingualism is one of its founding principles.

    Would it not make sense to extend MOS:TIES to nations (and regions) irrespective of whether they traditionally speak English or not? Because I can see how saying to someone that embraces multilingualism and values Europe's rich linguistic diversity wishing to contribute to an article on a topic with strong ties to their nation or region in the EU, where English is an official language, that in this case that tie doesn’t count (and someone else gets to decide) might be perceived as ... well ... rude and arrogant, which isn't just unnecessary but also unproductive. Would the article not benefit from including anyone with a strong tie to it?

    I must note I would prefer if there was an established international variant, but I also find it practical not to have to waste time and effort trying to work out whether in a given article its meter or metre, organise or organize, or SI first and then imperial, or imperial first and then SI. Because getting it wrong just causes unnecessary consternation, especially if the article is inhabited by one or more "Shelobs". Elrondil (talk) 06:41, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm not in favor of this idea. TIES is an exceptional case that should be used only when it's very clear; the main rule is RETAIN.
    In practice I think this proposal comes down to "don't use American English in articles about Europe". I don't agree with that. --Trovatore (talk) 06:52, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Also not in favor for the reasons cited by Trovatore. Doremo (talk) 07:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I do object to this.
    Moreover, from what I understand it's a perennial suggestion, so I recommend perusing the last major flare-up of it from June, wherein I happen to embark on a journey from the exact wrong position all the way to the right one, filling your heart with hope for a better future as you follow my progress. Remsense ‥ 论 07:23, 14 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    MOS:NOTGALLERY

    [edit]

    At another talk page, I was writing an explanation of why articles should not be swamped in a plethora of images, planning to cite MOS:NOTGALLERY. Fortunately for once I checked first and found that it is just an alias for WP:NOTDB, not a statement that article spaces should not be mirrors of Commons.

    Given that the majority of visitors do so on mobile phones, is there a case for an explicit policy that says that curation is essential, less is more?

    Or would it be enough to change the target of NOTGALLERY to MOS:IMAGEREL (which might need a little expansion because right now it just says Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding. When possible, find better images and improve captions instead of simply removing poor or inappropriate ones, especially on pages with few visuals. However, not every article needs images, and too many can be distracting. At least a reference to WP:ARTICLESIZE? (which is expressed in terms of word count, not megabytes, so would also need work). 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:48, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I think IMAGEREL would be a better redirect target. I want this to point to guidance that images should be included selectively rather than overwhelming articles with images. NOTDB instead seems to be guidance that images should be relevant and accompanied by text, which is not enough to prevent big indiscriminate galleries. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've had second thoughts about this one. It is probably not wise to make NOTGALLERY an exception to the general rule that WP:NOTaaaaaaaa shortcuts all redirect to WP:Wikipedia is not. So the better plan is to add a short sentence to the current target to say that Wikipedia is not a database of images or a catalogue raisonné; those are among the functions of Wikimedia Commons. Image use in Wikipedia articles must comply with MOS:IMAGEREL. I will do that now.
    IMAGEREL needs some work too, to make it even more explicit that to bury an article in a mass of images is sure way to ensure that nobody reads it. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 10:43, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    While some types of "galleries" should be avoided, articles on certain visual topics do benefit from many visual examples. I also do not think we should explicitly outlaw the catalogue raisonné model while allowing many other bibliographic lists. One size does not fit all, and such a change would need to be debated with the folks curating WP:NOT and those who work on visual topics. —Kusma (talk) 10:57, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Pending further discussion, I have removed the reference to catalogue raisonné from my amendment (so that it now reads simply Wikipedia articles are not a repository of images: image use in Wikipedia articles must comply with MOS:IMAGEREL. to item 4, "Photographs or media files".
    I agree certainly that, in an article about an artist or an artistic movement, it is essential to illustrate the phases of their artistic development. That to me is clearly in keeping with IMAGEREL and wp:localconsensus can determine relevancy. But to include an image of every work in an artist's oeuvre? How is that a valid exception to NOTDB? (and likely a COPYVIO too). And why not show every putter manufactured by ACME Golf Inc? every locomotive made by ACME Rail Inc? every postage stamp (including all misprints) produced by the Austro-Hungarian empire? We have articles so swamped in pointless images that they have become essentially unusable to visitors on mobile. How does that make any sense? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would definitely oppose including every work in an artist's oeuvre in an article on the artist, but I want to make sure we do not outlaw List of paintings by Edvard Munch, where the images are perfectly encyclopaedic and just as relevant for identification as the images in List of members of the 19th Bundestag. Tables in such long lists are often not great for small screens, but that is a separate issue from the number of images. Generally, lists are not the same as other articles in their use of images, so the rules should reflect that. —Kusma (talk) 12:25, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see a problem with that. Clearly the application of IMAGEREL should (and would) be different between a list article v a fairly broad concept article. To take your example, it would be entirely reasonable to include every image we have in the list article, provided that we use small thumbnails (upright=0.2); conversely (IMO) the bio article about Munch should be curated so that it has just one carefully chosen image to illustrate each phase of the development of his style [or at least his age, if we don't have a suitable RS], with maybe one or two especially notable examples that he did . Surely we don't want to replicate Commons? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]


    Please, let's not compromise the full extent of the encyclopedia by limiting what has always been one of its main features. Images and galleries define and describe just as much as text. That many choose to "read" Wikipedia on tinier gadgets should not dictate the coverage and image-styling of encyclopedic content articles. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem we have at the moment with some articles is what David Eppstein describes above as "big indiscriminate galleries" and rote copying of everything in Commons for no evident informative purpose, a form of visual clutter. As IMAGEREL begins, "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding". Without curation, the information gets buried in the woodpile.
    I am not proposing a principle that we must minimise the number of images, period. My proposal is that we provide a policy basis that editors can use to say "that point is already adequately illustrated, another image adds nothing new" or "this article had become so bogged down in images that it no longer navigable". I am talking about edge cases here, in most articles it is not an issue. But some have become swamped in an uncritical replica of Commons. This is not to enable wikilawyering, it just makes it easier to explain the rationale. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As an example of the sort of burying articles in galleries that I would object to, see hexagonal prism, where (at least in its current version) four of its six sections are entirely image galleries (in some cases hidden in collapsed templates, with much of their content peripheral to the main article topic).
    We do need wording that distinguishes this case from List of paintings by Edvard Munch, where the galleries are entirely appropriate, though. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    But as far as I can see, the List of paintings by Edvard Munch (and similar lists by artists) already complies with IMAGEREL, because the use of images in that article is proportionate and entirely relevant to that context. Conversely, to put all those paintings in the Munch bio article as a giant gallery would not be proportionate (IMO).
    So to focus this discussion, can anyone suggest another sentence we can use to amplify the point made in the opening sentence of IMAGEREL? ("Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding".) How about

    Consequently, each image in an article should have a clear and unique illustrative purpose: for guidance, see less is more.

    AFAICS, that responds to and respects both the Munch examples above. (FWIW, very few if any of the visual arts articles suffer from this swamping problem. The issue affects high profile articles like Swastika.) 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Audio video guidance

    [edit]

    Hi there, I'm noting a lack of guidance for Audio video content, I've mentioned this at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Images. It seems people just edit MOS rather than run through large discussions, but I'm reluctant to start plunging in before getting some help. Here is what i think is needed:

    • Something explaining that the guidance at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images applies to Audio-video content in most cases, eg regarding relevance, image quality, textual information, offensive images, placement, size, location, availability. Nearly all of the page is relevant, in fact.
    • The download advice might need to be different. Do videos or audio need a warning that they are large files? This is not assumed, it seems.

    There is a case for some separate AV guidance, regarding:

    • Length: should inline videos be shorter where possible? Does this apply to audio clips?
    • Language: if audio or video is original language, should subtitled content be preferred rather than recording originals? Should songs be subtitled where possible? What are the requirements for validating translations (what are the relevant WP policies on translation of original source material that apply?)
    • Rendition: historical accents and historical musical performances might be very rare. Should we say that modern standards are fine, in the absence of authentic reconstructions?
    • Public domain renditions: if audio or video is a rendition of a public domain source, for example a work by Mozart, or a speech by Caesar, what are the requirements for source validation (these should reference WP's general guidelines, but these are mostly focused on secondary sources).

    Jim Killock (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • Elsewhere, someone asked whether an RfC would be needed to add guidance on this topic. I think not -- while discussion will be needed on details, I can't see anyone objecting to clarifying that multimedia beyond everyday images should follow similar guidelines to those for image. The question is where to say that. We don't want to duplicate guidance on contextual significance etc., because that creates two things that need to be kept in sync. Probably the best thing is to expand MOS/Images to explicitly cover other multimedia. See BTW Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music_samples, which has a contextual significance section. EEng 20:39, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Thanks very much (and yes that was me!) I agree that MOS:Images would be best, especially to get this started.
      The contextual significance contains much about in-copyright works. That is in general very helpful. In-copyright video samples feels like something rather complex that might need an RFC, and might be best parked until there is a little more in place. Jim Killock (talk) 20:49, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      @EEng Would it be helpful if I draft up something on Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Images and ask for feedback? Jim Killock (talk) 21:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I suggest you wait a while so that the experienced editors gathered here can lend their thoughts. After that, you might take the conversation back to Talk:MOS/Images, but since that page has 1/5 watchers of this one, and you've already put a pointer there to this thread here, it might be better to continue here as you begin to draft. There's no hurry to this, so the slower you take it, and the greater the extent to which others can get their thoughts in, the smoother it will go. (I'm afraid I'm really tied up IRL so the time I myslf can contribute is limited.) EEng 21:24, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Happy to wait. I made a stab at below, but I can wait for further thoughts / feedback here. What I've provided relates to historical source content, as most of the AV I've been dealing with falls into this category; I have guessed at some other considerations but it is currently narrower than it should be. Jim Killock (talk) 21:44, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Audiovisual content can also be used for illustrative purposes. Most of the guidance on images above applies to audio visual content. Additionally, consider:

    • Length: inline videos or audio that is shorter will be easier for users to watch. Consider clipping long form content, and linking to the original on Commons, or elsewhere. Longer videos (eg, over 10 minutes) may be more suitable for links than inline video, unless they are highly relevant to the page's subject.
    • Rendition: historical accents and historical musical performances of content may be very rare. Modern renditions are fine, where authentic reconstructions are not available, and may be preferred, where there is uncertainty about the original performances.
    • Musical, poetic and literary content: aesthetic considerations are higher for these kinds of content. Where possible, the performances should be considered good by other editors. Where editors find performances are poor, content should generally not be included.
    • Language: where audio or video is in the original language, subtitles should generally be preferred rather than translated versions, as this reflects the original more closely and text files are easier to correct than mistakes in audio-visual content. Where possible, songs should be subtitled. Original language versions should be made available where where possible for artistic content.
    • Translations of subtitles should be verifiable, but as with other Wikipedia content, competent editors can create them. While academic translations are preferred, where subtitle translations are longer than 10-20 words, use of academic translations is likely to constitute copyright infringement. Here, a Wikipedian's translation should ideally be verifiable against an academic translation. (See Non-English sources for further guidance.)
    • Public domain renditions: if audio or video is a rendition of a public domain source, for example a work by Mozart, or a speech by Caesar, the original sources must be valid. The performance should be comparable and follow the original. Where possible, include links on media file pages so that editors can make checks.
    • Sourcing: as with images, sourcing of audio-visual content needs to be copyright compliant. Sources of CC video and audio can include Youtube, Flickr and CC search tools. Care should be taken to ensure the licensing claims appear to be valid.
    • See also: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music samples

    Jim Killock (talk) 21:50, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The "Language" point is a bit unclear to me. Is it asking for subtitles to be in English or the original language? If the phrase "rather than translated versions" is referring to the spoken or written material, that seems to contradict the phrase "where audio or video is in the original language". Which is also a weird way to say it because the "original language" could be English. Given that this is English Wikipedia, an English version should be provided whether or not there is a non-English version.
    Subtitles should be provided for all videos with an audio track, to make them accessible for readers who cannot hear or find it difficult. There are additional guidelines at MOS:ANIMATION.
    Not sure the "Sourcing" point needs to be made, as this is explained in detail for images generally.
    The "Length" point should probably link to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music samples and point out the copyright issue when displaying here under fair use. It should say "video" not "videos" to be grammatical.
    I would drop the "Translations of subtitles" point and just link to WP:NONENG for guidance on translations.
    The "Public domain renditions" point does not make any sense to me, and I would just drop it.
    I'm not sure whether the "Rendition" point needs to be made, but if it does, it's confusing. I think it's supposed to be recommending that historically accurate renditions of older works are preferred, if available. Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't, depending on what the purpose of inclusion in the article is. Might be better just to leave this point off; I don't see any similar guidance for audio samples of music. Page editors can decide which samples are best out of those available.
    Another point probably worth making is that a video should be considered an optional part of an article. In other words, any content vital to reader understanding should be included in the text and not be omitted on the assumption that reader will watch the video. Many readers will not be able to view video due to technical limitations, such as using a web browser that is not configured with a video player, or reading an article in another medium such as an app, paper printout, or text-to-speech system (including those who cannot see or find it difficult to read text). There is more specific guidance against putting text in images at MOS:TEXTASIMAGES.
    It's fine for a video to re-explain something that's already explained in the text if having a moving image clarifies substantially, but it seems wasteful for embedded videos to effectively repeat or rephrase the text.
    -- Beland (talk) 22:49, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks very much!
    • Regarding language, this was meant to be about non-English content, think Bach or Mozart in German or Latin; or Goethe's poetry.
    • On Sourcing, the section on images does not include YT, which is significant for CC video.
    • On translation, the situation for subtitles is a bit different, as usually you cannot use academic in-copyright translations, so this mention is retained.
    • On public domain renditions, this was the subject of a long and unclear discussion recently. Does that help? Take a file such as File:Queen Elizabeth I's Reprimand of an Insolent Polish Ambassador..webm. There is some need for verification, even tho it is not being used as a citation? I've edited it for clarity.
    • On style of renditions, this has come up a few times in discussion, including at the link above, where a user claimed only a Catholic priest could do a Latin audio recording; also at a parallel discussion on LA Wikipedia about accents and delivery, preferring a modern standard over historical guesses. I figured the same principle might apply to say reading Shakespeare, or using 16th century instruments; it simply shouldn't be a consideration, but sometimes editors think it should be.
    • I've added the points on (1) text as images, (2) subtitles for EN content, (3) optionality of AV content
    VERSION 0.2
    Audiovisual content can also be used for illustrative purposes. Most of the guidance on images above applies to audio visual content. Importantly, audio-visual content should not be an essential part of a page, which is necessary to understand the whole. This is because not all readers will be able to download or access the content, for example because of technical limitations or relying on text to speech tools. With audio and video just as with any content, relevance is paramount; consult WP:DUE for further context. There must be a clear reason for including the content on the page.
    Additionally, consider:
    • Length: inline videos or audio that is shorter will be easier for users to watch. Consider clipping long form content, and linking to the original on Commons, or elsewhere. Longer videos (eg, over 10 minutes) may be more suitable for links than inline video, unless they are highly relevant to the page's subject.
    • Rendition: historical accents and historical musical performances are not required. Modern renditions of audio are acceptable. For example, there is no need to read Shakespeare with an Elizabethan pronunciation.
    • Musical, poetic and literary content: aesthetic considerations are higher for these kinds of content. Where possible, the performances should be considered good by other editors. Where editors find performances are poor, content should generally not be included.
    • Subtitles for comprehension: In English language videos, an English language subtitle track should always be provided for accessibility. See MOS:ANIMATION for more details.
    • Subtitles for translation: where audio or video is originally in a non-English language, for example a Goethe poem, subtitles should generally be preferred over than translated audio, as this reflects the original more closely and text files are easier to correct than mistakes in audio-visual content. Where possible, songs should be subtitled. Original language versions should be made available where where possible for artistic content.
    • Translations of subtitles See Non-English sources for guidance. Note that longer subtitle sequences may need to be translated by Wikipedians rather than obtained from academic sources to avoid copyright infringement.
    • Embedding text: As with images, rendered text should be avoided in video content. See MOS:TEXTASIMAGES for more information.
    • Public domain renditions: if audio or video is a rendition of a public domain source, for example a work by Mozart, or a speech by Caesar, it must be possible to check the original scores or texts. An editor should be able to compare the performance with the original. Where possible, include links on media file pages so that editors can make checks.
    • Sourcing: as with images, sourcing of audio-visual content needs to be copyright compliant. Sources of CC video and audio can include Youtube, Flickr and CC search tools. Care should be taken to ensure the licensing claims appear to be valid.
    • See also: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music samples
    Jim Killock (talk) 23:32, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This appears to be related to situations such as Talk:Niccolò_Machiavelli#RFC_on_video_inclusion, where a video consisting of a person reading a letter aloud was included in an article, one example of a series of such edits. It is not clear to me that we need a bunch of guidelines about the best form for this sort of application because it is not clear that it is desirable to include such videos in the first place - the cart is being put before the horse. MrOllie (talk) 23:54, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I certainly would like to clear up some of the misapprehensions that regretfully appeared in that discussion. It's a discussion I will deeply regret getting involved in for some time.
    I'll be clear about the other discussions and examples of this content for context:
    @MrOllie I hope you can at least see that normally I try to be as collaborative as I can be. there's not much point going further into why that discussion became hard for me. However, policy is the place where we make guidelines to avoid disputes and lack of clarity.
    What meets WP:DUE overrides any other consideration, to my mind so I have added that to the draft text. (With audio and video just as with any content, relevance is paramount; consult WP:DUE for further context. There must be a clear reason for including the content on the page.) Jim Killock (talk) 00:12, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As regards the other articles where there was no discussion, just because there was no dissent at the moment doesn't mean there wont be in the future. What happened at the Machiavelli article could just as easily happen in the other ones
    I am also asking you kindly to please stop making the issues with that RfC bigger than what they are. Plasticwonder (talk) 00:27, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We can take this discussion in two ways:
    • We can either construtively discuss the principles behind what video content should be allowable; or
    • We can decide that emotions are too high for it and pause it
    I do need this guidance, because there are divergences of opinion on some of the points, and it's important to me to be able to resolve them. But my guess is that if the three of us are just going to rehash the RFC discussion, then that would a terrible use of other people's time and energy. A break off would make sense, in my view. Jim Killock (talk) 00:41, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No one's emotions are high but yours, judging by your rather relentless snipes against my character and the fact that you have so much as admitted it in the RfC. You have also stated that the RfC "needed to die" (quite strong words) when I gave you a chance to change your mind, and now you want to pause now that the discussion is nearing a close?
    I do not get what you are trying to accomplish here, to be fair. Plasticwonder (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It is not needed to rehash the RFC here, but I did feel that fresh eyes on this talk page should have enough context to understand what the proposal is about. MrOllie (talk) 00:48, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, I appreciate that as a valid concern. Does the change regarding WP:DUE help, or do you feel more is needed? For context, other points raised in the RFC such as regarding the need to be able to validate translation is also included. Jim Killock (talk) 00:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I dropped the video from Henry VIII; it seemed like excessive detail. It's already on Defence of the Seven Sacraments where it's a bit more appropriate. But even there, it seems like it violates the video equivalent of MOS:TEXTASIMAGES. Same for Martin Luther and On the Bondage of the Will.
    I also posted that the video for Elizabeth I should probably just be kept on Commons; there's already a general link to the topic there.
    I agree it's not clear that videos of performances of works should generally be included, so I would also be hesitant about specifying anything in particular about those. Uploaded videos cover a broad variety of subjects, including scientific phenomena, buildings, and specific events. -- Beland (talk) 03:22, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would like to understand MOS:TEXTASIMAGES a bit more, especially regarding accessibility in particular, as this is certainly an overriding concern. What makes the text subtitle files inaccessible and not regarded as text? Jim Killock (talk) 09:09, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Subtitles are, of course, text. They are less accessible than the text in an article because some readers will have technical or logistical difficulty watching video and thus reading subtitles or listening to audio narration. For readers that do watch a video (which presumably has an animation or something which illustrates the subject of the article in a way a still image cannot), it increases accessibility by allowing people who cannot hear or find it difficult to know what is being said or what sounds are happening in the video. -- Beland (talk) 15:37, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikipedia:Image use policy already says that for user-created diagrams, etc., a source for the underlying data must be included. To me, this applies straightforwardly to videos that are presenting public-domain content. A citation to the original work is kind of implied, but a reference to a specific version or even better an online copy, should suffice. YouTube videos that we're importing into Wikipedia as on-article videos are no different than diagrams or maps or explanatory videos uploaded by random Wikipedia or Commons users, assuming an appropriate copyright license. The reliability of YouTube is not really in question, any more than the reliability of any given Wikipedia editor is, when they are just repackaging information from a different underlying source in a more digestible way. That's different than citing a YouTube video as a reliable source for the information itself.
    I'm not sure I have enough examples to make a guideline about video length. Ten minutes seems way too long for download on a mobile phone, and most videos I would expect to be under a minute. Perhaps there are exceptions, but I'd want to survey how videos are being used now. In the meantime, I would trim the 0.2 version down to reduce scope and reduce overlap with other pages and rephrase and retitle:
    ----
    Video content (v. 0.3)
    • The guidelines on this page also generally apply to videos.
    • Many readers will not be able to play videos, because of technical limitations of their web browser, because they are seeing article content on a different web site or app, or because they are using a different medium, such as paper or text-to-speech system. Some readers cannot see or find it difficult. Videos should be used as a supplement to article material, to concisely illustrate the subject in a way that a still image or text cannot do. Videos should not replace article text, and articles should remain coherent and comprehensive when video playback is not available.
    • Similar to MOS:TEXTASIMAGES, for accessibility and file size reasons:
      • Videos that simply show text should be replaced with text.
      • Videos that simply show a sequence of still pictures should be replaced with an image gallery.
      • Videos of text being read aloud should be replaced with text, or if the sound of words is being demonstrated, audio files (with the text being read in the file caption or in closed captioning).
      • Videos of text and narration with should be converted to article text.
    • The copyright and other guidelines on Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music samples also apply to video samples.
    • The policies on Wikipedia:Image use policy also generally apply to videos.
    • Accessibility guidelines at MOS:ANIMATION apply.
    ----
    -- Beland (talk) 03:56, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikipedia:Videos has additional suggestions; not sure if it's appropriate to link there from here. -- Beland (talk) 03:57, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    With your commentary, this makes a lot of sense. I would point out that there was a lot of heat generated over YT reliability in the aforementioned RFC, so it would be good to point that it can be used. YT is not mentioned as a source for images in the images section above; an alternative would be to add it there in the list of common sources, but that also seems odd. I know one can point to the archive discussion, but that is not generally available knowledge for anyone looking at the guidance in future. Jim Killock (talk) 09:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I added a clarifying note at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources for YouTube; hopefully this will not be controversial. -- Beland (talk) 02:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Unfortunately that has been reverted as "unnecessary". It might make more sense here, because this is about video as illustration, and there is parallel advice for images above about CC content sources. Perhaps it should be parallel advice to this, eg mentioning that YT has a search facility for CC content (and there isn't anything else AFAIK). Jim Killock (talk) 09:10, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Imported YouTube videos. -- Beland (talk) 20:21, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks - quick observation that we have lost that the guidance for illustrative audio content would also generally derive from the images guidance. The music samples page linked is wholly focused on samples from copyrighted material; there is a lot of PD / CC music material on WP, especially for classical music. Sometimes this could do with subtitling, etc, care in positioning, checks for relevance, etc. Jim Killock (talk) 09:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, what are you suggesting? -- Beland (talk) 18:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think, where appropriate, add audio, eg "The guidelines on this page also generally apply to videos and audio files"; maybe "where appropriate, for instance non-English language audio files should include subtitles". I'm not sure there is much else. Jim Killock (talk) 22:56, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And where would you find that addition to be appropriate? -- Beland (talk) 02:37, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would amend the title to "Video and Audio content"; I would amend bullet one to "The guidelines on this page also generally apply to videos and audio files". Under "Similar to MOS:TEXTASIMAGES, for accessibility and file size reasons:" I would add "where appropriate, for instance non-English language audio files should include subtitles". The accessibility guidelines could move to be bullet two, in order that audio and video advice is at the top. Jim Killock (talk) 08:02, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It looks to me like hardly anything on Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images applies to audio files, and it seems like the wrong place to go looking for style advice about them. -- Beland (talk) 22:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    For example:
    These seem pretty substantially helpful guidance to me, and pretty similar level of relevance as to video files. Jim Killock (talk) 09:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, most of the material in those sections is not relevant to audio. I'd say if you feel strongly that guidance is needed for audio generally and not just music samples, we should create a new page. Editors shouldn't have to read through a whole page about images just to pick out the occasional tidbit on audio files, if they're only interested in the latter. -- Beland (talk) 20:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've posted the 0.3 draft for now, since that wouldn't be changed by adding an audio page somewhere else. -- Beland (talk) 20:46, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for posting the v 0.3. On audio, I would think about this from a few user perspectives:
    • There is currently no MOS advice at all on audio files and approaching general layout, pertinence, etc. What would the user do? Currently, MOS offers them nothing, so they must either guess or work off examples on other pages.
    • If a user asks for advice, where would they be pointed? (my guess: MOS:Images as closest match.
    IMO, it would be better to offer them something, even apologetically ("There is currently no detailed advice on MOS regarding use of audio files, but the basic principles of WP:DUE and some considerations at MOS:Images may be helpful.") This could be placed at a page relevant to other audio usage files, for example. Jim Killock (talk) 10:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    misleading text in Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Dashes

    [edit]

    The text on keyboard entry of dashes in Wikipedia:Manual of Style § Dashes is misleading. The text or on a Windows keyboard implies a technique specific to windows when in fact it is valid for any OS. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 15:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    True. What it should say: "on a Windows keyboard enter them manually as Alt+0 150 (on the numeric keypad) for en dash, and Alt+0 151 for em dash." -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 16:02, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Wrong on two counts:
    1. No. It should not say anything at all, per WP:NOTHOWTO.
    2. And even if it does, those alt codes are only valid for code page 1252 and related. They don't work if the user has a different default code page installed.
    Delete it completely. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:23, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I doubt that NOTHOWTO is meant to apply to the MOS. It's surely helpful for editors and hence should stay, reworded if needed. Gawaon (talk) 08:26, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Gaewon is correct: NOTHOWTO applies to articles only. MOS is littered with how-to stuff, as is should where the ratio (editor confusion and time saved)/(WP:MOSBLOAT) seems sufficiently high. However, if this starts getting into weeds of code pages and such, it may be best to relegate the whole thing to WP:How to make dashes, with a pointer to that from MOS. EEng 20:28, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So why not simply recommend {{mdash}}, {{ndash}} and {{snd}} rather than advise keyboard callisthenics? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I have always advocated symbolic representations (templates such as you list, or html escapes such as &mdash;) of the various dashes (and in some cases, even hyphens), rather than having them appear literally in the wikisource, so that editors can see at a glance that the right character is present. But even though EEng is pretty much always right, I can't seem to get people on board with this. EEng 20:49, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am happy typing the dashes on my Apple keyboards but also happy with recommending the templates rather than giving keyboard-specific advice. What I would like to avoid is warring bands of gnomes going around changing unicode dashes to templated dashes and vice versa. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Edit conflict: yes, different route to the same answer. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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