Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:08, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2021

The section on insider trading includes the excerpt from the 9/11 Commission Report describing how one firm purchased 95% of the put options on one of the days, but does not mention the detail that this was Alex. Brown, which A. B. Krongard had been a director at. This was mentioned in the press at the time. Example: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/mystery-terror-insider-dealers-9237061.html 216.164.226.176 (talk) 03:57, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done, not in reference given. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 06:37, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 31 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. There are differing views as to which title better satisfies WP:COMMONNAME, as well as how to weigh the criteria of consistency and precision. (non-admin closure) Colin M (talk) 19:49, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

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9/11 conspiracy theories → September 11 conspiracy theories – Most other articles in the topic area call it the "September 11 attacks" or just "September 11", not "9/11". The last move request was in 2010, but consensus could have changed since then. Another alternative could be Conspiracy theories about the September 11 attacks. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 22:36, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

• Neutral. After reading User talk:Crouch, Swale's comment and thinking about it some more, the current title probably is the more common term, despite it not being consistent with our other article titles. I'm now neutral on this move. Support to be WP:CONSISTENT with the formatting of main article. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:00, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
• Weak oppose this was discussed in 2018, see Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories/Archive 40#Requested move 18 December 2018. Google results for September 11 conspiracy theories mainly return things calling it 9/11 conspiracy theories. Yes we should generally try to be consistent but given this is seems to be more of a named topic rather than a descriptive title I think we look at what this is called not the main event. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:09, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support people say "9/11" because it's faster (and the people on Twitter who promote these theories would say "Bush did 9/11" because they are using a spoken register in their writing), but in written registers "September 11" is preferred. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 23:31, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose to main general suggestion. In particular, note that “September 11” and “conspiracy theory” when combined created a longer title than necessary. Moreover, the terrorist attacks aren’t actually the primary topic of “September 11”, but they are the primary topic of “9/11”. This type of move seems to have zero benefit at best, but many drawbacks at worst. Strong oppose to last alternative suggestion. That is an excessively unwieldy title. Could serve as a good redirect. Mrbeastmodeallday (talk) 12:24, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wiki Education assignment: English 202A Writing in the Social Sciences

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2022 and 9 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Charisse.v (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Openskies789, Sbradford1149, Kaylingonzalez00.

— Assignment last updated by Openskies789 (talk) 00:30, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

citation needed for this?

"According to an international poll that same year, huge majorities in Muslim countries prefer to believe baseless conspiracy theories rather than listen to the mainstream facts of what happened on September 11, 2001, in New York City and Washington. "

in any case I think this is a very un-wikipedia-like sentence, even if it is true (which seems unlikely to me). why not:

According to an international poll that same year, a majority of the population of some Muslim countries believe in some form of 9/11 conspiracy theory.

or something similar 2601:249:8A80:2550:889D:99AE:2575:5D08 (talk) 22:50, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

That does sound better. Dronebogus (talk) 01:59, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Nuclear demolition

There needs to be the underground nuclear demolition section added to the conspiracy theory section, there is wide and thorough research into this category by nuclear physicists and demolition experts. Please include it. 2601:280:C781:B7F0:BCCB:D650:2632:1ED1 (talk) 06:51, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Provide reliable sources documenting these claims first. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 13:03, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Gas pipeline through Afghanistan as conspiracy.

I find it odd that in this article the person has listed this as conspiracy theory..According to the fact the beginning of this pipeline started in 2015. 2604:2D80:DA10:4B00:3D63:1DD8:E70:7997 (talk) 22:51, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The conspiracy theory is that the attacks in the USA were staged in order to justify a war, just so a gas pipeline could be built in Afghanistan & profit US companies. It's not surprising that corporations decided to capitalize on the situation & build a pipeline once the US military invaded, but it remains a conspiracy theory that the attacks were part of a plan just to get that pipeline built. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 22:55, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Interesting comparison with moscow apartment bombings

Re: accusations of the attacks being staged by the home govt. for their own popularity benefit

OF COURSE the accusations on the latter (moscow) one were FAR more accurate and less of a 'conspiracy theory' (said so so that I don't get banned on 'suspicion of promoting' wild conspiracy theories)

but still..i don't think it would do harm for wikipedia to include this bit 2402:E280:3D1D:5B0:F8E5:CCBD:7266:964B (talk) 10:19, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

and if it is apparently WP:OR (which I doubt), then what/why does the statement "encyclopedia compiling ALL human knowledge" should/shall mean 2402:E280:3D1D:5B0:F8E5:CCBD:7266:964B (talk) 10:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources discussing such a comparison need to exist before we can have anything to say on the matter. Girth Summit _(blether) 12:20, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 March 2024

change " a researcher from the French National Centre for Scientific Research published in Le Monde." to "a researcher from the French National Centre for Scientific Research published in the newspaper Le Monde.". It makes it clear that Le Monde is not a scientific journal, which I personaly thought reading it. MartinUnknown (talk) 18:21, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done --TheImaCow (talk) 13:01, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2024

This statement (“These include the theory that high-level government officials had advance knowledge of the attacks. Government investigations and independent reviews have rejected these theories.[2][3]”) should be changed because I could not find any evidence that the government were/were not involved so it is best not to even include it. Nowhere did it say these theories were rejected nor confirmed. I’m sure this has confused other people I just would like this to be a lot clearer and correct statement. Thank you for your slave work for Wikipedia it is greatly appreciated as you do what 99% of others would rather not. 174.234.143.10 (talk) 04:40, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I could not find any evidence that the government were/were not involved

That's asking to prove a negative, which is not possible. Also, do NOT use the term slave work. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 11:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Question

Why isn't there a section debunking the conspiracy theories like in the Moon landing conspiracy theories article? 2806:230:1036:BCED:EE2E:98FF:FEF4:9A03 (talk) 04:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Because the modern preference is to debunk them in-line, rather than giving the CTs too much weight by letting them go uncontested & then having the debunking in its own section. The moon landing article is based on the older way of doing it. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 12:56, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Edit to the "World Trade Center" Section, Combustion of Kerosene Temperatures, Dec 22, 2024

Content:

Hello! I am proposing an edit to the section that currently states:

Soon after the day of the attacks, major media sources published that the towers had collapsed due to heat melting the steel.[97][98] The erroneous claim that the combustion temperature of jet fuel could not melt steel contributed to the belief among skeptics that the towers would not have collapsed without external interference. The basic claim is false, because the combustion temperature of kerosene (jet fuel) is, in fact, more than 500 °C higher than the melting point of structural steel (2093 °C vs. less than 1539 °C).

This text appears misleading, as it references the adiabatic flame temperature of jet fuel (kerosene), which assumes idealized conditions that do not exist in real-world scenarios, such as a stoichiometric mix of pure oxygen and no heat loss. These conditions are not reflective of what occurred during the events of 9/11.

Proposed Replacement Text:

""Soon after the day of the attacks, major media sources published that the towers had collapsed due to heat melting the steel.[97][98] While the theoretical adiabatic flame temperature of kerosene is 2,093°C, this assumes perfect conditions, such as no heat loss and complete combustion in a stoichiometric mix of pure oxygen. In real-world conditions, such as burning kerosene in normal air, flame temperatures typically range from 260°C to 315°C, far below the melting point of structural steel (1,539°C) with maximum flame temperatures approaching 990°C. While these temperatures are insufficient to melt steel, they can weaken it significantly, contributing to structural failure."

Sources:

ChemEurope – Kerosene

Firefighter Insider – Is Kerosene Flammable?

Wikipedia - Flame

I believe this edit aligns with Wikipedia’s goals of providing accurate and sourced information. I welcome any feedback or alternative suggestions to improve this section. Thank you! Yaktam (talk) 06:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I have no fundamental objection to your proposed edit. My reversion yesterday was based on the informal tone of the way you had it composed the first time. This is more formal and leaves out the "of course," etc. However, it would be better to find references that specifically mention WTC, rather than relying only on basic references on combustion, since one characteristic of conspiracy theories is a tendency to claim special circumstances. And the part about weakening steel is probably the most important thing to reference, since one of these special pleadings focuses on melting rather than weakening, which happens at relatively low temperatures, removing margins of safety in a compromised structure and inducing thermal stress that is not part of the design assumptions. Acroterion (talk) 14:13, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback! I’ve revised the proposed text to include references specific to the World Trade Center (via the NIST investigation) and detailed the weakening of steel at elevated temperatures. I hope this update addresses the concerns raised:

"While the theoretical adiabatic flame temperature of kerosene is 2,093°C, this assumes perfect conditions, such as no heat loss and complete combustion in a stoichiometric mix of pure oxygen. In real-world conditions, such as burning kerosene in normal air, flame temperatures typically range from 260°C to 315°C. These temperatures are far below the melting point of structural steel (1,539°C). However, steel loses approximately 50% of its strength at 600°C and around 90% at 980°C. This weakening, combined with the removal of fireproofing by the initial impact and prolonged exposure to fire, may have contributed to the structural failures observed during the collapse of the World Trade Center towers."

Sources:

1. ChemEurope – Kerosene
2. NIST World Trade Center Investigation - Mechanical and Metallurgical Analysis of Structural Steel

I welcome any final feedback before implementing the edit. Thanks again for your time and suggestions! Yaktam (talk) 23:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Air Defense Standown Theory

Proposed Revision to Air Defense Standdown Theory Paragraph

The current paragraph discussing NORAD's notifications on 9/11 does not fully capture the nuanced details found in Anthony Summers' book The Eleventh Day: The Full Story of 9/11 and Osama Bin Laden.

"The longest warning NORAD received of the hijackings was some eight minutes for American Airlines Flight 11, the first flight hijacked. The FAA alerted NORAD to the hijacked Flight 175 at just about the same time it was crashing into the World Trade Center's South Tower. The FAA notified NORAD of the missing – not hijacked – Flight 77 three minutes before it struck the Pentagon. NORAD received no warning of the hijack of United Flight 93 until three minutes after it had crashed in Pennsylvania.[82]"

Specifically, the book emphasizes that while NORAD was informed of the hijackings and had time to intercept United Flight 93, they were awaiting authorization to shoot the plane down. Furthermore, it overlooks the critical fact that the passengers of Flight 93 heroically stormed the cockpit, causing the plane to crash before it could reach its intended target.

I propose the following revision to better align with the sources:

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"The longest warning NORAD received of the hijackings was approximately eight minutes for American Airlines Flight 11, the first flight hijacked. The FAA notified NORAD about United Airlines Flight 175 as it was crashing into the World Trade Center's South Tower. Similarly, NORAD was informed of the missing – but not hijacked – Flight 77 three minutes before it struck the Pentagon.

Regarding United Airlines Flight 93, Major General Larry Arnold indicated that there had been time to intercept the plane. However, NORAD was awaiting authorization to shoot it down, a decision that was ultimately obviated by the extraordinary bravery of the passengers who stormed the cockpit, leading to the plane's crash in a field near Shanksville, Pennsylvania.[82]"

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This revision maintains the factual timeline, incorporates Summers’ argument about the shootdown order, and adds context about the passengers' heroic actions, which are an essential part of the historical record. I believe this revised version is more accurate and comprehensive while preserving the neutrality required for the page. Feedback is welcome! Yaktam (talk) 02:30, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

"they were awaiting authorization" By whom? I get that there may be a delay when the information goes through the chain of command, but in emergency situations the response can not afford many hours of deliberation. If the decision is taken two hours after any potential attack, the attack has probably already taken place and the decision has no practical effect. Dimadick (talk) 04:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment, Dimadick. I understand the concerns regarding chain of command and decision-making during emergencies. However, my intent here is not to debate those issues but to correct the current paragraph to accurately reflect the information in the source being cited. According to The Eleventh Day by Anthony Summers, NORAD did receive warning about United Flight 93 and was awaiting authorization to shoot it down. This is a key detail that the current text omits and misrepresents. My proposed revision aims to align the article with the cited source and provide a more accurate account of events. I hope this clarifies my position.

Feedback is welcome! Yaktam (talk) 06:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)