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Use of latin_name for romanization

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Several universities, for example V. Dokuchaev Kharkiv National Agrarian University, have native names in the Cyrillic Script and have romanizations listed in the latin_name field. I had removed some as obviously not Latin before I realized that's what was meant. Should the rest be removed as well? Should there be a field for romanization? Does the romanization belong in the lede? McYeee (talk) 21:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Romanization of Ukrainian, it looks like the {{lang-uk}}, {{lang}} or {{transl}} templates is the preferred method of giving both Cyrillic and romanized forms of Ukrainian names. I assume this would apply in the infobox as well, so using one of these templates in the "name=" field would seem the best approach, e.g.:
:name={{lang-uk| Харківський національний аграрний університет ім. В.В. Докучаєва| translit= Kharkivskyi natsionalnyi ahrarnyi universytet im. V.V. Dokuchaieva| translit-std= ungegn}}
Robminchin (talk) 23:12, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean
::native_name={{lang-uk| Харківський національний аграрний університет ім. В.В. Докучаєва| translit= Kharkivskyi natsionalnyi ahrarnyi universytet im. V.V. Dokuchaieva| translit-std= ungegn}}
or something else? I think name is for English? McYeee (talk) 03:14, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, so busy working out the other template I got confused on this one! Robminchin (talk) 04:07, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Is there an easy way to search for university infoboxes with names listed in Cyrillic? If so, I'll look into fixing more of them. McYeee (talk) 22:18, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know of one I'm afraid. There might be some clever thing that can be done with maintenance categories but that's not something I know much about. Robminchin (talk) 23:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Darn. Thanks McYeee (talk) 19:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
McYeeeI'm going to play around with regex. I think that having the infobox in an article and then name (making sure native name doesn't hit) followed by an equals, and then at least one Cyrillic letter prior to the next pipe or closing brace would be what you are looking for, right? If you could tell me one that still needs to be fixed, that would help. (for Cyrillic letter, I'm going to use the range from A (Cyrillic) to Ya (Cyrillic). I know that might miss some letters, but I'm betting no university name will *only* have Cyrillic letters that are non-Slavic. Naraht (talk) 23:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can't seem to get it working the way I want any examples, I can try to get to ping on?Naraht (talk) 23:29, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I may have explained my request poorly. Here's an example of what I'm looking for. Donetsk State University of Management. What's listed as Latin is actually a romanization, not a Latin name. I believe there are a few more of these and I may have deleted some of them thinking they were patent nonsense rather than a misuse of the template. What I was hoping to do is go through the list of universities with Cyrillic in their native names which also have latin listed to check to see if they are romanizations.
Also, can you link me to where I can run a regex search on field values? McYeee (talk) 23:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=insource%3A%2Fnfobox+University%2F+insource%3A%2F%5B%5C%7C+%5Dname+%2A%3D+%2A%5B%5E%7D%5C%7C%5D%2B%5B%D0%B0%D0%90%5D%2F&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns15=1&ns100=1&ns101=1&ns118=1&ns119=1&ns710=1&ns711=1&ns828=1&ns829=1 , maybe I'm missing something, but I think in additon to having Infobox University, it has name (but with a space or pipe before) the the equals (with spaces) and then some number of characters that aren't pipe or close brace and then either an A in Cyrillic (either upper or lower), if I could get this to work, I'd expand to more Cyrillic letters.Naraht (talk) 23:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We want native_name to by Cyrillic. This revised search does that, but we also want to restrict it to pages with the latin field set McYeee (talk) 00:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thoughts on latin_name

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Someone mentioned recently that this parameter is probably being overused. Unfortunately I can't find that post now, but I have had some thoughts on what "University name in Latin, if commonly referenced" means:

  1. This is for the university's Latin name, not a translation into Latin of the English name. If there no evidence that a Latin name is ever used, this parameter should be blank.
  2. If the only usage is on the university seal and degree certificates, which are self-published primary sources, this is evidence of the name existing, per WP:ABOUTSELF, but does not demonstrate that the name is "commonly referenced". Putting the Latin name in the infobox on the basis of this is likely to be WP:UNDUE
  3. If the Latin name is "commonly referenced", it should be relatively easy to find evidence of the Latin name, possibly in abbreviated form (such as in post-nominals), used in WP:RELIABLE sources.

And, on a related topic:

  • The Latin name should be in the nominative (with universitas or collegium for university of college), but sources may use a different Latin declension (seals and. In particular, seals will often have something like Sigillum Universitatis Illyriensis (Seal of the University of Illyria) on them, using the genetive form. Degree certificates may also have something like Praecis et Coratores Universitatis Illyriensis (The President and Trustees of the University of Illyria), again using the genetive. WP:Competence is required means that editors need to be able to recognise and deal with this if they're going to edit this parameter. Robminchin (talk) 23:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for bringing this up; I've certainly argued for less use of this parameter. I'd also like to add that post nominals can sometimes be abbreviations of English as in Soton and that, because of the way adjectives also decline in Latin, it requires some skill to determine whether the nominative is Illyriensis or Illyriense. McYeee (talk) 23:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there consensus here? If not, assuming no one else says anything, how much longer should we wait? McYeee (talk) 20:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd normally leave it a week to give people a chance to comment and discuss how best to implement this in the documentation. Robminchin (talk) 20:44, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should we edit the documentation? McYeee (talk) 22:23, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the new documentation, possibly something like: "University name in Latin, if commonly referenced. This should not simply be a translation of the English name but should have a reliable independent reference showing use (possibly in abbreviated form) as the Latin name. Use only seen in self-published, primary sources, such as the institution's seal or degrees, is likely to be WP:UNDUE in the infobox. The name should be given in the Nominative." How does this sound? Robminchin (talk) 15:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That looks good to me. I've updated the documentation to your wording, except that the links don't seem to render. I have no idea why they don't, but I don't think it has anything to do with my edit. McYeee (talk) 19:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I looked back in the history, and it seems that other links aren't rendering in the documentation from before your edit. I thought they had worked in the past (and clearly people have added them in the past), so maybe something has broken in the rendering engine? Robminchin (talk) 20:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They did. archived I wonder if it's a known bug. McYeee (talk) 22:32, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template-protected edit request on 11 September 2024

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Please include the following "Sanctioned Entity " Nbarchaeo (talk) 19:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You need to first establish consensus that this should be included. It doesn't seem obvious that this is a relevant parameter. Robminchin (talk) 21:22, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

About the infobox images, seal, and logo...

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I am going around to the various infoboxes to update the style so that logos (and by extension, seals), are visible in the Dark Mode (see User:Robertsky/To-do/Infoboxes). The use of the image parameter here is rather fluid dependent on whether there are seal and/or logo available. (This also means that there is no images of the universities in the infobox apparently?).

As there are plenty of infoboxes to go through, I would like to solicit feedback in the meantime, in addition to the Dark Mode changes, to other potential adjustments to the infobox such that there will be:

  1. seal= parameter;
  2. someway to dynamically set seal and logo position based on the presence of the values in both seal and logo parameters. Some positions I have observed so far:
    1. seal -> other params -> logo
    2. logo -> other params
    3. seal --> other params
  3. some semi-automated work to sort through the articles to update the infobox with the new parameter.

– robertsky (talk) 12:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to experiment in the sandbox. You can also look at the "monthly parameter usage report" linked from the documentation to get a sense of how parameters are used. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Latin name

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I propose that a) the Latin name field should not be used to link to Latin Wikipedia articles and b) every instance of the field should have either a citation or a {{citation needed}} tag. Does anyone object to that, or have a good idea how to apply that change to a bunch of articles? McYeee (talk) 04:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(a) seems reasonable and should be readily accomplishable by script. (b), though, is a bit more of an issue, because it is possible that the claim might be cited in the body, in which case a citation/cn in the template would not be necessary. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For (a), is this the kind of thing I should request AWB permissions for so I can use JWB, or would you expect it to be more involved than that? For (b), I guess that makes sense, but it still seems like it should be cited in both places; are you saying that a {{cn}} is just overkill for that kind of not-quite-perfect citing? McYeee (talk) 04:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's not normally a need to add references to things in the lead that are referenced in the body. As it says in MOS:CITELEAD, "Because the lead usually repeats information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material." Having said that, if the Latin name is only cited in the context of words on a university seal or some such, this may not establish that it is important enough to put in the lead – but that's a different issue. Robminchin (talk) 05:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! For some reason I'd assumed that infoboxes weren't considered part of the lead. I stand corrected. McYeee (talk) 07:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unless there's a format that's much more widely used, it appears there's only about 30 instances where this parameter is linked to Latin Wikipedia, so I don't think even AWB is needed - it could be fixed manually pretty quickly. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't realize the search function did that. Thanks! I've unlinked that Latin from those pages. McYeee (talk) 03:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should directly address the fundamental question: Why is this parameter in the infobox? Why do we think that the Latin name of a college or university is so important that it must be included in the lede? From my perspective as a scholar of US higher education, I see no value in this parameter for US institutions as the Latin name of an institution is so rarely used that it's just obscure trivia. Am I mistaken? Is this wildly different for other countries? ElKevbo (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that at least part of the reason people consider the Latin name important is because, for a lot of universities, it was historically the common name, at least in writing. Historians probably care more than scholars of modern higher education, I think. McYeee (talk) 21:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are a small number of universities where the Latin name is used regularly in postnominals (Oxon, Cantab, Dunelm, etc.) or is used used around campus (e.g., Dunelm House; the Dunelmensis Award for alumni). However, as with other parameters in the infobox, it has been used all over the place rather than just when it is "commonly referenced" as the docs have it. In most cases, it could be deleted as there isn't evidence that the Latin name is commonly referenced. Robminchin (talk) 21:45, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oddly though, not all postnominals are Latin. University of Southampton is soton. It's probably also worth mentioning non-anglophone universities like the University of Bologna which are old enough that the name seems important. McYeee (talk) 21:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Recommend remove: Hello! This is a modified paste from my talk page but please note that I'm NOT an expert on the topic at all. Based on the little that I know, Latin used to be an academic language used in Europe and the early colonies when there weren't as many universities as there are now. For context, there are maybe four Australian universities with Latin names and it is only actively used by UQ. I believe that a lot of new editors using VisualEditor assume that Wikipedia expects them to translate university names to Latin for some reason and that is likely why editors keep attaching false Latin names to university articles. It is associated with ancient and colonial universities and aren't really useful in a world where English is the de facto academic language. The other issue is that although I've added a bunch of Latin names for universities with sources, it doesn't actually mean that they were ever used outside of one or two instances. While the sources are reliable, the context surrounding the sources are dubious. Additionally, a lot of American universities only have it on their seals and it shouldn't be used in those instances at all. The parameter should be removed altogether and the older universities with actual Latin names, like Harvard and Pennsylvania, should mention it under a free label. There weren't a lot of universities in existence when Latin names were used so having it be a universal feature in an infobox used on 27,000 articles is odd and will only lead to more editors being confused. The feature is likely an obsolete remnant that only still exists because nobody knows its purpose but there are existing alternative and native name parameters, and free labels, so it doesn't need to exist. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 00:26, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another paste: According to this document, scholarly use of Latin started being replaced by English at around 1500. It only mentions the English-speaking world though but it should be enough considering that this is English Wikipedia, only five Australian universities have ever used Latin names and all universities founded before 1600 are ancient universities that predate the colonial colleges. Newer American universities with Latin names in their seals shouldn't use the parameter based on just that. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 00:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TLDR; Since there were few universities in existence when Latin and Latin names were used, the parameter should be removed from an infobox used on 27,000 articles to prevent confusing new editors using VisualEditor. There are existing ways to display a Latin name where applicable so the feature is redundant. Alternatively, is there any way to hide it unless explicitly used? Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 00:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we can ignore the non-English-speaking world. If it were, for example, that the common name of the University of Michigan was derived from Universitas Michiganensium in most European Languages, it seems like it would make sense to include it in the infobox. I have no idea if this is the case, but I'm a bit worried that this is a Chesterton's Fence. McYeee (talk) 01:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the Latin names cited on articles both before and after I started adding references were from congratulatory letters between universities during anniversaries. This includes Universitas Michiganensium, which was previously Universitas Michigania on the article which I couldn't find a reference for. Latin names are mostly just used on degree parchments these days as graduation glitter. There are some cases where it may be important to mention in the lead (e.g. Sapienza University of Rome was founded as Studium Urbus) but there's no reason why it can't be included in other names instead. I have a friend who studied Latin in university so I'll ask him but he doesn't check his messages often. Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 01:43, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again! I checked with my friend (not a reliable source) and he basically just said what's already in the UOW summary except that it was still used for scholarly texts up to the 18th century in education and science and that it is still an important language for classical works. When I was expanding the University of Adelaide article, I remember reading that Latin was taught since its inception so that might explain why. It's also still used for taxonomy and religious works, including at the Vatican. I'm now leaning towards a soft keep as Latin names may be useful for readers to find older works produced by universities. This is my best theory so far for why it may be in the template, since there's never actually been a discussion on this topic. Do you know if there's a way to check which articles are using the Latin name parameter so I can manually check them and add references? I reckon I can do about 1000 articles starting next week. Thanks! Queen Douglas DC-3 (talk) 09:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than adding references, it might be better to delete the Latin name from the infobox of institutions when it isn't "commonly referenced", then people looking at existing articles to see what parameters are normally filled in would not see it. Robminchin (talk) 01:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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